Rock 'n' Roll

Kyrel Zantonavitch's picture
Submitted by Kyrel Zantonavitch on Fri, 2016-02-26 07:18

Rock 'n' roll is one of the great achievements of mankind. No music today better speaks to people, or means more to them. Especially that of the 1960s and '70s from Britain and America. Groups like The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Beach Boys, The Momas and The Popas, The Doors, ABBA, Elvis, Springsteen, etc., and too many others to name, created great songs which are too many to name.

Altho' usually radical and controversial when first composed and arranged -- and resisted mightily by the artistic establishment -- many of these tunes are now musical "standards." The intelligence, passion, vitality, power, energy, and liveliness of these is too profound to ever be decently denied.

Yes, at times even good groups can be too loud, overwhelming, simplistic, and focused on a driving, primitive beat. These innovator and warrior bands can sometimes got caught up in their own magnificence and rebelliousness. But when aimed at true musicianship and a lofty craftsmanship -- and when properly creative, inventive, sophisticated, harmonic, and tuneful -- these groups are simply wonderful. Intellectuals and cultural analysts today very much need to study the greatness thereof.

And connoisseurs of artistic triumph and transcendence should take care not to be fooled, or turned off by, the current gross over-repetition of just one version of a top quality or hit song, as currently played on the radio. Nor by the long hair, scruffy looks, crude mannerisms, odd public images, and wild lifestyles of many or most of the musicians involved. These are open, provocative, flamboyant, rebel artists -- and they want it known. But...when not being overly pretentious, or caught up in their own rock star/musical god persona, these revolutionaries and heroes of mankind often manifest genuine artistic genius and stunning musical greatness.


Musical Champion

Kyrel Zantonavitch's picture

Prof.

Kyrel Zantonavitch's picture

Neil -- If I ever get an honorary degree, I want it to be "professor". The term originally meant "he who professes knowledge of something". I profess knowledge of liberal theory! Cool

Mark

Neil Parille's picture

If I were dictator -

1. People out of government would not keep their titles. It would be "Mr. Bush" not "Mr. President."

2. Honorary doctorates would be abolished.

3. No one would be called doctor who didn't have an M.D. or Ph.D. - sorry optometrists.

and

Newberry's picture

and

4'33"

Newberry's picture

4'33"

Musical Category

Kyrel Zantonavitch's picture

Mark -- If rock 'n' roll, as a category of music, (1) isn't true music, or (2) is aesthetically illegitimate, or (3) is always bad, or (4) is inherently morally depraved, then please tell me which other categories of music are thus. Rap, jazz, swing, polka, disco, country, banjo, bagpipe, torch songs, show tunes, marching band, barbershop quartet, etc.?

I'd love it if you, or anyone else, could make a list of evil or non-music music, and then justify this categorization employing evidence and reason.

Viva!

Shane Pleasance's picture

Viva the Rocksistance, Hunter!

You will have to try to prise the Beatles from my cold, dead hands.

Dictatorship

Mark Hunter's picture

When I am Dictator of the World, performers and purveyors of rock noise will be shot. All recordings of rock noise will be burned. People who used to listen to rock noise will be sent to reeducation camps.

Those who graduate from reeducation camp will enjoy listening to Gottschalk, Leroy Anderson, Mozart, and other great composers. Any backsliders who manage to find contraband rock noise will be shot.

As for rock and roll, as in Elvis Presley, that’s a different genre entirely. Elvis Presley was a great talent. Musically speaking Ayn Rand was a fool to dismiss him.

... Yeah, and Rachmaninoff wasn’t all that great if you ask me.

Froggy, please stay out of my Solop posts.

Reconciliation

ding_an_sich's picture

I'm surprised no one has brought up progressive rock. It's the reconciliation of rock and classical music, along with other various styles such as blues, jazz; and it has introduced numerous instruments into the rock world, ranging anywhere from the gamelan ensemble instruments to the mellotron. And the beauty and composition of the pieces, and themes presented are unmatched in the rock world. Hell, even in some classical music too.

Just like everything in this world, I apply Sturgeon's Law to music as well. Only about %10 of music is really worth listening to.

Rock the Horrible

Kyrel Zantonavitch's picture

If rock music is so unmusical, unartistic, and low in quality, why do so many classical musicians listen to it, and love it? And why the reverse? And what other music is intrinsically poor: rap, jazz, country, fiddle, marching, stage, show tunes, rhythm and blues, big band, Gilbert and Sullivan?

My desire to understand these and other issues, to state the obvious, is superior to anyone else here. But you have to actually use evidence and logic to convince me. It isn't enough to just employ extreme ad hominem.

Ultimately, the whole world is interested in learning about the putridness and non-musicality of rock music. Why doesn't someone write a careful, systematic, insightful article about this, so we can all learn and be uplifted? Does someone at least have an internet link to an Objectivist or non-Objectivist essay or two? This isn't a small issue.

I'm never intimidated, don't defer to authority, and decline to take things on faith. Please use reason.

Ahh Richard...

Olivia's picture

The ending to Cielo e Mar is just out of this world. E Lucian Le Stelle is very moving. Marechiare is very uplifting. Ave Maria is very beautiful.

My favourite Lanza is also E Lucevan le Stelle (best in the world!), Vesti la Guibba (almost inexpressible grief) and Marechiare (pure sense of life fun and upbeatness). For light and beautiful romantic joy I absolutely adore his Loveliest Night of the Year - I have a friend who loves this too, and everytime she plays it we dance around the room to it together while her blokey pleb husband rolls his eyes with embarrassment cursing our sappiness. I don't know how anyone could hear it without being swept up by its joy! Smiling

It's called 'Mario Lanza as

Richard Wiig's picture

It's called 'Mario Lanza as The Great Caruso' - Original Film Soundtrack. I purchased it as Mp4's from iTunes. I currently don't have access to a good sound system, so I use my iPhone with quality earphones.

Richard

Lindsay Perigo's picture

Bravo!!

As a matter of interest, which CD are you listening off? Is it The Great Caruso and Caruso Favourites?

Linz

Richard Wiig's picture

I have listened intently to it twice and thrice daily since you asked your question so that I could give a better answer. I like the power in his voice. I like the deep emotion and passion. I like the beauty, and I like the deep humanness of it. I like that it draws me into, at times, an emotional experience. The album has grown on me with each listen. Of the songs I found least accessible - and parts actually grated on me - Cielo e Mar, Vesti la Guiba, they do not grate anymore. The ending to Cielo e Mar is just out of this world. E Lucian Le Stelle is very moving. Marechiare is very uplifting. Ave Maria is very beautiful. It would be impossible not to like La Donne e Mobile. Anyway, I will be purchasing more Mario without a doubt, and delving further into Opera in general.

Brutality

Newberry's picture

"Michael will be appalled at the brutality of my comments, so I dissociate myself in advance from his appalledness ... would give him (Richard) all the guidance he needs ... I can't think of a single one, in hindsight, who meant it and followed through."
It is fun to read your aesthetic militancy, less fun to see the frustration it causes you. As I am getting older I see one bad habit I picked up from Objectivism, which is to tell what I know. And I don't have the finesse of great writers, that can get us to "see" without us realizing it. People don't want to be told anything. Can it be true that out of many millions of people that there are not enough great writers of and explorers in search of great art? A terrible stain on humanity if true.

So ...

Lindsay Perigo's picture

What is it, Richard, that you like about what you hear?

You can think what you like,

Richard Wiig's picture

You can think what you like, Linz, but you're wrong about my lack of sincerity in musical exploration. I have been listening to Mario and I genuinely like what I hear. Phoney, my arse. As for me asking which album would be an ideal one to start with, it was a fair question. I'd prefer to purchase one of his better albums rather than one of his worst.

Quite!

Lindsay Perigo's picture

Michael asks:

Where is the growth to explore the best in history? To explore other cultures? To let go of pop, and discover meaningful and unique artists?

The answer is: it ain't there. And that's why I have zero tolerance for the Kyrels and Richards of this world when it comes to their aesthetic multiculturalism. They pretend to be keen to learn but have no intention of liberating themselves from the arrested development to which they're so militantly addicted. Kyrel arbitrarily repeatedly asserts the "genius" of sundry headbangers without making the slightest attempt to explain wherein the "genius" of these cultural terrorists lies; Richard whines about not being hand-held in his purported exploration of Mario when the simple expedient of scrolling down this page—or looking up any one of hundreds of "KASS Music Gems" posted by me over the years—would give him all the guidance he needs, not just re Mario but the entire glorious spectrum of Romantic Music. These people are not genuine musical pilgrims; they are attention-seeking phonies. Phooey!

Michael will be appalled at the brutality of my comments, so I dissociate myself in advance from his appalledness! The fact is, I couldn't have made it clearer from Day One that SOLO is for on-the-level folk who take The Romantic Manifesto seriously. In my Music of the Gods article I have gone a step further than Rand and said her strictures do apply to music as to the other arts. She acknowledged that herself, tacitly, in her comments on Wagner and eyeless sockets jerking to jungle drumbeats. From Day One I have had people approach me pretending to want to break their headbanging addiction and enlighten themselves (which is not, by the way, an exercise in which one achieves stasis—a whole lifetime is truly not enough to become acquainted with and value-swooned by the glory of Romantic Music). I can't think of a single one, in hindsight, who meant it and followed through.

Kyrel: "... these

Newberry's picture

Kyrel: "... these revolutionaries and heroes of mankind often manifest genuine artistic genius and stunning musical greatness."
Puppet of your time? Edit: It is like someone's musical taste stopped when they were 12-17 years old, where is the evolution? Where is the growth to explore the best in history? To explore other cultures? To let go of pop, and discover meaningful and unique artists?

Thanks, Greg. I haven't yet,

Richard Wiig's picture

Thanks, Greg. I haven't yet, but I'll be sure to give of them all a whirl over and over again. I'm looking forward to it.

Commander

gregster's picture

Richard, some Mario suggestions. All are beyond superb and will grow on you:
Un all'azzuro spazio; Lamento di Federico; E lucevan le stelle; M'appari; Come un bel di di maggio; Mamma mia, che vo' sape; Che gelida manina.

Well, I have been listening

Richard Wiig's picture

Well, I have been listening to Rachmaninov and Tchaikovsky every day, sometimes twice a day, for two weeks now, and it has grown on me with each listen. Now I'll do the same with Mario for two weeks. No one has suggested a good starting album for me, so I just took a stab. I've gone with "The Great Caruso". Hopefully it's a good choice.

Whatever intellect is there

Richard Wiig's picture

Whatever intellect is there is obviously communicated through the song. To make an album like The Who's, Quadrophenia, requires intellect. Unintelligent people would not be capable of producing it. Anyway, here's a couple of rock performances that are not characterised by crotch grabbing and the making of devil signs.

I was asking a question of

PhilipD's picture

I was asking a question of Kyrel, Richard.

Again, how do they communicate this 'fair amount of intellect?'

Is that all there is to Rock

Richard Wiig's picture

Is that all there is to Rock Music, Philip?

"You mean by head-banging, crotch-grabbing, flashing the sign of the horns and so on."

I too was mesmerised by the

Richard Wiig's picture

I too was mesmerised by the children's rendition, Kyrel. It was very enjoyable, and they should rightly be proud of their performance.

'Rock players also generally

PhilipD's picture

'Rock players also generally perform close to their fans, and have to communicate a fair amount of intellect, passion, and meaning to the crowd.'

Communication of intellect and meaning? You mean by head-banging, crotch-grabbing, flashing the sign of the horns and so on. Or did you have something else in mind?

I'm genuinely baffled by this.

Unmitigated garbage!

Lindsay Perigo's picture

Headbanging caterwauling apologist Kyrel ejaculates:


Rock players also generally perform close to their fans, and have to communicate a fair amount of intellect, passion, and meaning to the crowd. Classical musicians are usually far away, and don't have the need to communicate as much, generally. Rock stars are also usually one of only five or so performers, while classical players are generally one of about a hundred; thus it's easier to hear the rock star's mistakes. Remembering all of this, and considering all the intensity and emotion involved, playing a great rock concert isn't easy!

Intellect? There is no intellect to communicate.

Passion? Passion is not synonymous with decibels.

One of only five or so performers? How about a solo recital with pianist—two people—such as Mario at the Royal Albert Hall? Unamplified? If you weren't so lazy, Kyrel, you'd check such a display of true talent out. But really, you just can't be bothered.

Rock star's mistakes? No rock listener would be able to identify one, since he's by definition stupid and deaf.

I don't mind that you want to defend filth, Kyrel. As I say often, this is an open forum. I do mind when you attack real talent in the process. Love of filth is your prerogative, and I shall allow you to slime here even though I'm not obliged to. Counter-advocacy for true talent is my prerogative, and I shall denounce your evil cultural terrorism at every turn.

Rock Musicians vs. Symphony Musicians

Kyrel Zantonavitch's picture

Thanks, Richard! I was somewhat mesmerized by those kids. Smiling

People shouldn't underestimate the difficulty of making and playing rock 'n' roll at a high level. Most classical musicians just have to do one job: play the music. John Lennon and Paul McCarthy had to write both the lyrics and the melody for most of their songs. Then they had to arrange, balance, and harmonize them between four players. Then they had to execute both the vocals and their instruments simultaneously. This is something like five jobs.

Rock players also generally perform close to their fans, and have to communicate a fair amount of intellect, passion, and meaning to the crowd. Classical musicians are usually far away, and don't have the need to communicate as much, generally. Rock stars are also usually one of only five or so performers, while classical players are generally one of about a hundred; thus it's easier to hear the rock star's mistakes. Remembering all of this, and considering all the intensity and emotion involved, playing a great rock concert isn't easy!

Excellent, Kyrel. I love

Richard Wiig's picture

Excellent, Kyrel. I love their beaming smiles at the end.

Led Zeppelin

Kyrel Zantonavitch's picture

Rock music is great even when it's radically altered and played by the youngest of kids:

The Musical Ascent of Man

Kyrel Zantonavitch's picture

Olivia -- The invention and creation of rock music was a real achievement which took many decades to accomplish. The segue and struggle from symphony, to big band, to jazz, to rhythm and blues, to rock, isn't something you should take for granted. You might want to study the history and development of this exuberant art form from some competent authority. Unfortunately, I'm a fan -- pretty much the opposite of an expert on this matter.

You're certainly right that rock stars don't make it easy to love them. And the plethora of talent-free garage bands out there is truly remarkable. But there's plenty of quality music in existence too. Especially the songs which sprang from the counter-culture revolution of the 1960s and 1970s from Britain and America. Maybe just check out the classics! The liveliness, energy, and passion is unmatched anywhere.

All of this artistic innovation happened on Ayn Rand's watch, by the way. And she never noticed. Such a nightmare. What is the proper moral, aesthetic, and spiritual evaluation of this? (Just kidding. I'm the only person on the planet capable of providing an answer to that one.)

Olivia, you write of "the dramatic highs, exquisite lows and everything betwixt, which it gives sound to, I just don't understand how anyone with any kind of functioning intelligence refuses to enjoy its incomparable depth, breadth and beauty. This smacks of emotional and intellectual arrested development." I may understand this more than you realize. You don't have to hate classical to love rock 'n' roll.

This subject is far bigger and more important than anyone has thus far treated it. I just bought a book on musical theory from an Objectivist friend of mine: Dancing with the Muses: A Historical Approach to Basic Concepts of Music by Matt Johnson (second edition, 2013). After I read it, and possibly study a bit otherwise, I may address this subject later.

A Thought

Kyrel Zantonavitch's picture

Brett Anderson, British rock musician, 1994:

"Pop is all about doing something that connects really easily, and that's why I've never had any time for classical music. Partly because my dad used to shove it down my throat, but it just bores me because it's too easy. Anyone can be that complicated. Three notes is far cleverer than three hundred if they're arranged in the right way, and that's what pop music is all about."

John Lennon

Kyrel Zantonavitch's picture

Tore -- John Lennon really went downhill as a musician and person after The Beatles. What a shame! Many artists are subject to this kind of failure. Rock stars especially. Often they get treated as, well, "rock stars." They achieve greatness, people start to excessively worship them, and then they start to think they no longer have to try, work, create, or achieve anymore. Lennon was both a composer and performer -- so he could fall further than most.

Kyrel - As for The Beatles...

Tore's picture

They are one of the exceptions of the general rule that everything sucks, especially when they were young. Watch A hard day's night - they have what you might call "sense of life". Mind you, this was before drugs fucked them all up. Witness what a fucking monster John Lennon became and ask yourself why.

Hahaha!

Olivia's picture

Yes...vocal fry tones. AWFUL!!! I share her sentiment completely about wanting to throw poop in their faces. I couldn't have put it better.

Tore

Lindsay Perigo's picture

america has rotted the human mind, and the human soul for good.

The surest sign of this is the way American women now "speak"—an affliction that has caught on all over the world, including New Zealand. I call it "quacking," as in the sounds ducks make; in America itself apparently it is called "vocal fry." It marks its perpetrators out as deeply, deeply stupid. All the women on Fox do it. You hear it often on CNN, and even now on BBC. Human beings with functioning minds and healthy souls wouldn't dream of making noises like this, but it's par for the course in a culture defined by headbanging caterwauling, where any semblance of standards and intelligence has been abandoned and the corrupt, lying, treasonous statist Hillary Clinton is a shoo-in for President:

In Praise of Rock

Kyrel Zantonavitch's picture

The Beatles were widely praised by musicians of all stripes in the 1960s -- once listeners finally figured out what was going on. But they had to get past all the mindless, hysterical hatred in the media and culture, and then independently, intelligently judge the music on its merits. There's always been such cross-pollination between symphony music and rock. Most classical musicians today love rock 'n' roll.

http://articles.latimes.com/20...

Excerpts from 2013 newspaper article above:

Alsop, 56, said she likes the 1960s and '70s hard rock band Deep Purple, whose music often fused rock with classical influences. "We're as valid as anything by Beethoven," the group's cofounder Jon Lord, who died in July, declared in 1973.

"The connection between rock and classical is a strong one," Alsop said. "So many people have used the same tunes — Bach's 'Toccata and Fugue,' Beethoven's Symphony No. 5; Holst's 'Mars' from 'The Planets,' 'O Fortuna' from 'Carmina Burana' — as inspiration for new creations."

Since Bernstein's day, distinguished conductors have become outright fans of pop stars. When Luisi, 53, learned that Icelandic singer-songwriter Björk was in the audience for his 2010 Met performance of "Lulu," he was hoping she would accept an invitation to visit him during intermission. But her shyness prevailed.

"My first knowledge of Björk's music was through iTunes," said Luisi, who especially admires the songs "Oceania" and "It's Oh So Quiet." "I love her approach to new sounds made just with her voice."

In August, Los Angeles Philharmonic music director Gustavo Dudamel, 31, shared the Hollywood Bowl stage with one of the pop music idols of his youth, Dominican star Juan Luis Guerra.

Dudamel also happens to admire Aerosmith. "I've downloaded everything I can by them," he said, "and I'm amazed at their character and vocal sounds."

Alan Gilbert, 45, the New York Philharmonic's music director, said he's is a huge admirer of Elvis Costello. He also avidly watches YouTube videos of pianist Art Tatum. "I'm blown away by his facility and musicality," Gilbert said.

Richard Egarr, music director of the Academy of Ancient Music, a period-instrument orchestra based in Cambridge, England, said he's seen Prince perform many times and has taken his daughter to concerts.

Tore

Richard Wiig's picture

I think you are too pessimistic. The human spirit has not been killed off yet despite barbarians of all stripes, shapes and colours working hard, for a long time now, to achieve it. It's an impossible task, so no matter how bad things might get, there's always the fact that nothing is set in stone.

For the love of screech machines

Richard Wiig's picture

Those two videos have sold me on Mario, so any suggestions as to what album I should make as my first purchase would be most welcome. It's self-evident and indisputable that he is in the stratosphere while Metallica is mired in the muck. Lately I've been starting to broaden my musical horizons into Rachmaninov and others. I'm going to keep going there, and I'm looking forward to it, but I can't see it curing me of my love for the likes of this...

That, along with so many other things that I listen to, across a broad ranger of genres, is not head banging caterwauling. It is not nihilistic. It is an achievement and, from my perspective, it is a great pleasure to listen to from time to time. That not everything that I listen to rises to the heights of Mario is neither here nor there and really, a complete irrelevancy.

I agree with you, Kyrel. Rock N Roll is an achievement.

American culture

Tore's picture

all great art came from europe, be it music or sculpture or writing og drawing or painting or whatnot.

america destroyed the world, culturally; they never gave us any good componists, writers, painters, sculpturers and whatnot. instead, they gave us modern art in all its forms. the blues, and rock, is an american invention. andy warsehole, crappy music, porn, hollywood - the cultural decay came from america. aggressively. it killed the human soul. granted, the rest of the world followed suit, but how could it not, given the immense influence all this shit had. yes, mario lanza was on top of the charts in the early fifties. yes, some other dimes here and there enjoyed success after that from time to time. but those are the exceptions, not the rule. and it almost never happens anymore, maybe it never will happen anymore. america has rotted the human mind, and the human soul for good.

i think it's impossible for todays "humans" to enjoy truly good art; spiritually, we are sub-humans living today compared to a hundred years ago. being pissed off about this is of no use: it's like being pissed off at a special olympic ice skater for not living up to the standards of a non-retarted world champion.

Grant

Lindsay Perigo's picture

You write:

Fifty years ago pop music was dominated by Motown and the British invasion. During the 1950s, Lanza was hardly representative of pop music. Think Perry Como, Tony Bennett, Rosemary Clooney, Frank Sinatra, Elvis and the early stars of R&R. Lanza was just one of many singers/entertainers of the period who had hit records. I don't say this to denigrate his talent or minimize the menace of the current cultural degeneration (which includes all the arts). But objectively, that's the case. It's your loss if you can't enjoy/appreciate other forms of music.

I say again:

You seem not to absorb my point that Mario, who had real talent and sang real melodies, was pop five decades ago, and an inspiration to Elvis ... and that fact clearly denotes a major and disastrous cultural change for the worse since Mario's and Elvis's time.

I didn't claim that he represented pop—he was a singer who, with his incomparable operatic prowess, took classically-derived ballads to the top of the pop charts (Sinatra said of him, "He can sing like me, but I can't sing like him"). But that was not anomalous. Perry Como, Tony Bennett, Clooney, Sinatra, Elvis et al, all of whom I "appreciate and enjoy," sang tunes with life-and-love-affirming lyrics, the antipode of contemporary hate-driven nihilistic caterwauling filth. I proudly cannot appreciate and enjoy filth. Au contraire, I regard headbanging caterwauling as loathsome cultural terrorism every bit as destructive as Islam, and will express my contempt for it at every opportunity. That I can assure you is no loss on my part.

Nonsense.

Olivia's picture

These are open, provocative, flamboyant, rebel artists -- and they want it known. But...when not being overly pretentious, or caught up in their own rock star/musical god persona, these revolutionaries and heroes of mankind often manifest genuine artistic genius and stunning musical greatness.

Oh god, Kyrel - you have it so wrong! In fact, you have now set the bar of revolutionaries and heroes to an all time low. It is exactly genius and musical greatness which "musicians" lack, and when are they ever not overly pretentious or caught up in their own "god" persona?? If they had great talent or musical depth I'd wear it, but they do not. You're defending the musical equivalent of a Rothko painting and calling it "great art" when it's just shapeless, meaningless nonsense and noise.

Modern performing noise-makers (I can't use the term musicians to describe them as it is just not true) wouldn't even know what real flamboyance looks like, they're too caught up in self-consciously "cool" wanking to have an original self to express, and they only get much worse as they get older (like that hideous, fossilised thing out of Iron Maiden I saw interviewed recently on Fox of all places - I mean really! Just shoot yourself already).

I pity people whose reading tastes do not extend beyond fashion magazines, because I know what they have closed themselves off to - the magnificent world of real literature! Same goes for those who call music what you call it. I'm sorry to say it's just pig ignorant. When one knows what is actually out there, especially in the world of classical music, and the dramatic highs, exquisite lows and everything betwixt, which it gives sound to, I just don't understand how anyone with any kind of functioning intelligence refuses to enjoy its incomparable depth, breadth and beauty. It smacks of emotional and intellectual arrested development.

SenseOfLifeOrchestra

Shane Pleasance's picture

If but for 5 minutes. Merely a John Dory in an ocean of shimmering delights.

Lindsey

Grant Jones's picture

Fifty years ago pop music was dominated by Motown and the British invasion. During the 1950s, Lanza was hardly representative of pop music. Think Perry Como, Tony Bennett, Rosemary Clooney, Frank Sinatra, Elvis and the early stars of R&R. Lanza was just one of many singers/entertainers of the period who had hit records. I don't say this to denigrate his talent or minimize the menace of the current cultural degeneration (which includes all the arts). But objectively, that's the case. It's your loss if you can't enjoy/appreciate other forms of music.

http://www.rockmusictimeline.c...

Grant

Lindsay Perigo's picture

I'm fully aware of the differences to which you refer. I also claim that those differences have become not just blurred but obliterated in the last two or three decades. You seem not to absorb my point that Mario, who had real talent and sang real melodies, was pop five decades ago, and an inspiration to Elvis ... and that fact clearly denotes a major and disastrous cultural change for the worse since Mario's and Elvis's time. I listened to your "Walking on Moonlight" link for about 50 seconds before being unutterably bored by it. It's not nihilistic, but it is nothing. Facile inanity, requiring not the faintest skerrick of talent from anyone. Pop got much worse after that, to the point of its current outright evil—to wit, Metallica, whom you were lauding.

When some aesthetic retard comes on here and says headbangers, sick fucks that they are, are "exciting" and "fun," I'll allow it, even though it's clearly aimed at me, because this is an open debate zone; but you can be sure I'll state my opinion of such asininity unambiguously. I had already done so in Music of the Gods. No one has taken me on on any of that, except someone who flounced over it, Joe Maurone, an open devoteee of headbanging caterwauling, who took me on not here but some other site, knowing I don't go there.

Reagan got the point in his farewell address that his "Reagan Revolution" could not survive the cultural depravity that was sweeping the nation. Rand had cited that depravity when closing down her newsletter, saying the culture was now too depraved for her to contemplate, let alone write studious articles about. Objectivists have since embraced that self-same cultural depravity, yet maintain the delusion that popping off about the free market will somehow lead us to the Promised Land. Freedom is a prerogative of the civilised, not the birthright of savages—a point that eluded even Rand. Freedom in the hands of headbangers—savages with hi-fi gear—won't last five minutes. And their anti-music is filth. Unmitigated, life-hating filth.

One Last Example

Grant Jones's picture

I really enjoy the Brian Setzer Orchestra's fusion of big band and 1950s rock and roll. How can anyone call this "vile?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

P.P.S.

Grant Jones's picture

Even with some of the better heavy metal that I enjoy, my main focus is on the instrumentals not the singing. Another example would be Larry Carlton's masterpiece "Point It Up." Just about the best guitar work ever this side of Al Di Meola.

It doesn't get any better than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

P.S.

Grant Jones's picture

Then there is R&B. I'm sure it's not everyone's cup of tea. But, it is not "vile, talentless screaming."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

While no Mario Lanza, this did take some talent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

As I wrote earlier, I'm capable of enjoying and appreciating many different types of music.

Lindsay

Grant Jones's picture

There are differences between pop, rock, rock and roll and heavy metal. The following link is to a pop/rock song from the 1980s. It's benevolent dance music. I don't see how anyone can have a problem with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

And ...

Lindsay Perigo's picture

... the drooling beast's voice is headbanging caterwauling. Anyone who claims he enjoys headbanging and Romanticism is Cruzing. Such a contradiction is not possible to an honest man ... maybe to a confused, undiscriminating person who genuinely can't hear the difference.

Doug, I'm surprised you haven't put *this* one up:

I cheer when Trump points to the media and calls them scum. I was part of them, went to the top in fact in my country, and know how true it is. Now, of course, I am blacklisted for calling them out as the leftie, Islam-hugging maggots that they are.

Mario Voice - Beauty Manifested

Doug Bandler The Second's picture

Mario's voice was close to human perfection. To even appreciate that would require some type of life affirming world view. I think that died in the 70s.

Rand was right that we live in a dark age. I don't think we know how dark it truly is. You know, my older relatives always tell me that back in the 50s they were able to walk around NYC and the Bronx alone as kids, without any type of guardians. My Aunt tells me stories of walking around the Grand Concourse in the Bronx (today all black and hispanic and probably Arab too sadly) and never fearing for her safety. This was during the 50s. That is not possible today. Why? I think immigration is a significant part of the reason but there is more as I've seen too many stories of predatory molestation of children by whites.

The "drooling beast" came out in the 1960s. Its some combination of corrupt epistemology meets relativist ethics meets moral agnosticism meets sociopathic guilt ending up in a total loss of civilizational confidence. We are literally a sick culture.

Kyrel

Doug Bandler The Second's picture

You might be right as many of those songs are pre-70s. Nihilism started to dominate after that. I also think that the earlier rock songs were more benevolent; that time frame where Rock comes out of the Big Band era. By the time you got to the 70s everything was dark. And today... I can't listen to Slayer or their equivalent.

Today everything is a combination of stupid and sexual; ie Linz's "Airhead America".

Rock 'n' Roll

Kyrel Zantonavitch's picture

The moral goodness and artistic greatness of rock music is self-evident and needs no defense. Take a listen to some rock 'n' roll before it even reached a high level: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

For Kyrel and Grant

Lindsay Perigo's picture

And here's the guy who's written the Foreword for the print issue of my Mario book on why Mario is objectively superior to the vile, talentless screaming of Metallica:

Doug

Lindsay Perigo's picture

This is the Mario hit that topped the charts for months:

Of course Islam could never produce a Mario, or allow him to sing if it did. That has nothing to do with skin colour—Islam is not a race—and everything to do with values. Islam is evil.

There's a lot of trash around that is white-skinned. It is trash not because it's white-skinned but because its values are Islamic by proxy. Its no coincidence that the Muslim call to prayer that Hussein Obama loves so much sounds like a precursor to heavy metal. It's no coincidence that Islamotrash proclaims its nihilism—"we love death as much as you love life"—as brazenly as headbanging caterwaulers proclaim theirs. What's astonishing is that Objectivists embrace the latter and appease the former.

SOLO—Objectivism as if The Romantic Manifesto mattered!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The fact that The Romantic Manifesto clearly doesn't matter to any Objectivist is the reason Objectivism will eventually morph right here into Authenticism. The reason I'm not in a hurry is that I realise I'll be the only Authenticist on earth!!!!

good video clip from the past

Doug Bandler The Second's picture

Wow, that clip shows something that would be impossible today. Even a lefty like Koppel was intelligent and well mannered. We have fallen far in the last 20-30 years.

And I did not know that Mario was atop of the pop charts for over 8 months Shocked But I have seen a number of movies from the 40s and 50s and they seem innocent and benign by today's standards. Wasn't "Guys and Dolls" somewhere back in the late 40s? My favorite is "Kiss Me Kate". I loved that movie as a kid.

I hate to say this yet again but... Linz can we have a culture with Mario in it that is not a white dominated culture? If America becomes Mexico with African and Muslim zones mixed in what type of culture will that produce? The world of Mario Lanza was pre-1965 which means pre-multi-racialism and pre-sluttening (what I call the sexual version of "airhead America".) God I hate to even think it, but I see a barren wasteland culturally for our future. I would love to bask in someone like Mario's innocence and his talent. But listening to him almost seems like I'm listening to the music of species of human that is dead and buried; like I'm listening to a ghost. It depresses me more than uplifts me which is probably more a comment on my fatalism more than anything else.

Doug

Lindsay Perigo's picture

You write:

I Agree with you that symphonic music is the gateway to the sublime. I'm no expert but I wouldn't be surprised if you are right and that the Romantic symphonies of the late 18th and early 19th centuries were the pinnacle of music (just as they were the last gasp of greatness in painting and sculpture; WW1 being a cultural turning point). But not to defend rock music as such, I do think that you need to take into account IQ. Lower IQ people are not going to be able to cognitively appreciate opera or classical music, or even Mario.

I do take it into account. That's why I call anyone who says what Kyrel just said about symphonic music low-IQ, or "stupid." That's being charitable. All the retards who make these sorts of statements are ostentatiously and self-righteously self-afflicted with the fashionable Attention Deficit Disorder or whatever it's called. Their (derelictions of) opinions on matters they can't concentrate on for long enough to form an opinion are worthless.

The fact that Romanticism is demonstrably the apogee of music doesn't mean that a lot of other music, such as Big Band, which is an off-shoot of it, are invalid or less than admirable, as Grant seems to think I'm claiming. There is an article here, Music of the Gods, which explains all this, and I wish someone just for once would read it and cogitate upon it before rushing to the defence of nihilistic filth.

I'm about to put out a print version of my book, The One Tenor, about Mario. It includes a reprise of my article right here contrasting the culture that spawned Adam Lanza with the culture that nurtured Mario Lanza. Mario, remember, sat atop the pop charts for 34 weeks in 1950 with an operatically-delivered ballad derived from a Brahms piano trio. Clearly, people generally were much less stupid then than they are now, and much more idealistic. Nihilism and the deep stupidity necessary to sustain it had not yet kicked in. I fear that we have become desensitised to the evil of the latter. Just now I was watching this, an interview by Ted Koppel with former President Nixon. It's instructive to watch an interviewer who knows how to listen and who is not a hyperventilating Narcissist like O'Lielly, and a former President who is a model of coherence and conviction (a strange thing to say about Nixon, perhaps, but watch, and you'll see what I mean). These days we have Trump who can't finish a sentence, the contrived Cruz who can't finish at all, and Hillary who's a congenital liar whom the press simply refuse to go after the way they did Nixon. There is no professionalism any more, no integrity, no decency, no high-mindedness ... and the best exemplar of these deficiencies (aside from the "vocal fry" that makes it impossible for any civilised person to listen to any female anchor on TV) is headbanging caterwauling, which is now ubiquitous. The streets are teeming with sub-stupid moronnials plugged into it and rendered catatonic by it.

Anyway, look at this and weep for the cultural degeneration that has gone on before our very eyes. It's 25 minutes long, which won't be "fun" enough for the stupid, but I put it out here in the hope that some aren't:

I

Mr_Lineberry's picture

was brought up to believe that 'people like us' are lovers of classical music, opera, and the like, whilst ordinary folk like popular music or 'rock and roll'....(mainly because they are so ignorant they don't know any better haha!)

Personally I would be hard pushed to name more than 5 pop songs ever recorded, or more than a couple of pop stars. Perhaps if I was an ordinary person things would be different, but it simply "does not compute" with me.

Linz

Doug Bandler The Second's picture

I Agree with you that symphonic music is the gateway to the sublime. I'm no expert but I wouldn't be surprised if you are right and that the Romantic symphonies of the late 18th and early 19th centuries were the pinnacle of music (just as they were the last gasp of greatness in painting and sculpture; WW1 being a cultural turning point). But not to defend rock music as such, I do think that you need to take into account IQ. Lower IQ people are not going to be able to cognitively appreciate opera or classical music, or even Mario.

There's an IQ strata and thus there will need to be artistic styles for everyone along that strata. Now in our culture which as been decimated by Pomo-wanking-leftism you get nihilism everywhere, especially for the lower classes. Rock and Roll might indeed be a cultural dead end that wouldn't have survived a better philosophic foundation. Yet I don't think that it is all "headbanging"; not all rock is nihilistic. And I would extend that to popular music in general. Much of it is crap, some of it is evil, some of it is listenable, and a rare song now and then is actually good music.

I don't have any favorite popular music era though. If it weren't important for getting girls, I wouldn't listen to anything modern. And I do detect a greater strain of nihilism in lyrics and style in post 90s music. I call it the post Lewinski blowjob era. Everything after '97ish is part of the late stage Leftist America ("generation airhead") and the Clinton blowjob is the symbolic start of the rise of American decadence as the ruling paradigm of the Western World (which we are exporting to the entire world under the guise of "free markets").

And of course Objectivism should be taking an interest in cultural degeneration. But if they did that they would have to recognize that there great enemy is the Left and that many Conservatives are their allies. That they won't do.

P.S.

Grant Jones's picture

Springsteen is a poser. His "regular working guy" façade is as real as Michael Moore's. He's also a leftist douche.

Good Grief, Lindsey

Grant Jones's picture

I enjoy rock, some jazz, big band, classical and other types of music. It's possible and it's not either/or.

Regarding Kyrel's list, I lean towards more "hard" 1970s style rock such as Aerosmith, UFO and Rush. I do appreciate some heavy metal such as Metallica and Iron Maiden and Judas Priest. Although, I don't consider myself a "head banger."

Kyrel

Lindsay Perigo's picture

Not only is there a wide variety of musical tastes out there, as you note, but people seem very mentally conditioned to forever like the music they grew up with, or discovered on their own when young. But to characterize all rock music as "headbanging caterwauling" is wildly untrue and grossly unfair. Might as well label all symphony music as "tiresome, tedious, phony, pretentious, fatuous, vacuous, pathetic, god-awful crap which is only good to slit your wrists by."

I'm not sure how broad your definition of "rock music" is. You mentioned Elvis. You should be aware, but no doubt couldn't care less, that Elvis's favourite singer was Mario, whom you don't begin to get, and militantly refuse to try to get, just as you mindlessly dismiss symphonic music. Your comment about the latter just sets you aside as a crass apologist for aesthetic filth, which places you alongside ARI and TAS who long since abandoned any claim to defend the glories of Romantic music. Enjoy your barbarism! Just know that, in my view, you're all part of the enemy. Nihilism is evil, in music as in any other area. Headbanging is "fun"? Only to a dumb savage. There's a reason the less dumb savages study classical music, as you acknowledge, though: it's the ultimate true music. In my claim that there is such a thing, I depart from Ayn Rand, who said you couldn't make such a judgement. Boy, was she wrong!!!! And the consequences of her wrongness are being felt, disastrously, today. Rand's musical relativism is part of the fashionable open door to broader cultural relativism ... and there's nothing more lethal or stupid than that.

Kyrel, if you're not just the lazy, slovenly intellectual slob I think you are, make a serious attempt to address the matters in my Music of the Gods article, and actually take the trouble to listen to *all* the clips in my Setruction post. You won't, of course. I know you'd rather just continue to be conditioned to like the anti-music you grew up with. But I'm open to being surprised.

and the other way round :D

VSD's picture

for some time in the 80s and 90s 'Classic Rock' by London and Vienna Symphony Orchestras were very popular ; )
or the 'bad boys from the cloisters' (Gregorian Masters of Chant) - I think I still have their CD 'The Dark Side' lying around somewhere next to Dvoraks 'New World' ...
Not saying they were better (some might argue they polluted the art to pander for mass-tastes) but there certainly are large overlapping areas and quite a few mixtures I find very enjoyable.
As for conditioned: maybe 'strongly influenced' is a better description as we are more impressionable at those ages - tastes change over time.
VSD

Rock Bands vs. Orchestras

Kyrel Zantonavitch's picture

Vera -- Not only is there a wide variety of musical tastes out there, as you note, but people seem very mentally conditioned to forever like the music they grew up with, or discovered on their own when young. But to characterize all rock music as "headbanging caterwauling" is wildly untrue and grossly unfair. Might as well label all symphony music as "tiresome, tedious, phony, pretentious, fatuous, vacuous, pathetic, god-awful crap which is only good to slit your wrists by."

Most good rock stars study and know classical music to a high degree. They just prefer to play something far more lively, passionate, powerful, and fun.

Musical Tastes

VSD's picture

are as diverse as each individual dares to be ... whether that be 'headbanging caterwauling' or 'setruction' (to stay with the current lingo here) doesn't really matter as long as it speaks to the individual listening to it ... what I really abhor is when huge masses of 'fans' scream their heads off (possibly in the last row of a stadium where they can't hear anything of the music anymore) and asked what they like about 'their' band all they can say is 'they are cool man'.
My RnR days never got any further than a Bonnie Tyler (the duets with Meat Loaf are still a nostalgic favorite) or a Marianne Faithfull but if someone really is moved by a piece of music I think it did it's job: touching a chord.
My favorites are Celtic women, and not the modern compilations under that 'label' but the originals from Ireland, Wales, Scotland. Many find them too 'soft' or 'obscure' but they touch a chord in me and many of the ballads they sing of tell a story I love. As for other styles: got some Omnia to beat out the headbanging caterwaulers ('I don't speak Human'), some Rondo Veneziano ('Musica Fantasia' 'Zodiaco') to prove my inferior tastes in classical music, got introduced by a colleague to Alison Balsom (now that's an instrument I never thought I'd enjoy listening to: trumpet like I never heard before), or confuse the hell out of me with a Marla Glen (could even be a better Marianne Faithfull), and if I really want to get emotional everybody get out of the room when I listen to Natalie Merchant ; )
There's even more variety im my eclectic collection but it does not matter which genre it comes from: when it touches a chord, when it tells a story in your soul - listen to it ... and when you want to discuss musical merits go to university : P
VSD

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.