IN THE BEGINNING

Rex Wilkinson's picture
Submitted by Rex Wilkinson on Wed, 2006-05-31 18:01

In the beggining was the natural forces and when monkey finaly evolved he could not understand the natural forces so these became known as the gods.Nowdays some of us have evolved enough to understand the natural forces so no longer need the mountain of mythilogical bullshit that our society is intrenched in.Primative cultures all round the world have the same belief still.The Maori have the origanal concept of god being the natural forces which is proof to my mind that religion was invented long before man spread himself around the planet,proof that monkey invented god and we inheireted the silly notion.If I,m right,we have a sick society that needs to be made well.No amount of fixing religion will make it sane.The concept is flawed from the start.


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Live for everything

Rex Wilkinson's picture

It just goes to show how brainwashed you are if you percieve atheism to be nothing.Science and knowledge in general would be nothing too,the only thing real is your fantasy about how special you are?If you want to go through life thinking that eggo is everything then wank yourself silly,I adhere to the notion that facts exist.That there is only one reality,and if you can't grasp the first and most important fact then nothing will make sense anyway.Knowledge is like a building you start with the foundations and build it up layer at a time brick on brick fact upon fact we construck reality and if your foundations wrong your building will colapse.

Know my audience?

Rex Wilkinson's picture

I am getting to know my audience and am realy enjoying it.It's my first such adventure and I havn't had so much fun in ages.I don't have the background or have I done the hard yards to be so cocky but I do have balls,courage in large dose's.I'v had an audience most of my life for one reason or another,sport,musician,sales rep.So it is my comfort with sharing who I am that makes me so different.

Rex...know your audience.

Victor Pross's picture

Rex...know your audience. This is the least informative thing you could communicate to THESE people. Ethics is a major topic in philosophy--which these people are well-versed in and of course, Objectivism has established a non-religious foundation to a systematic rational approach.

Morality without god

Rex Wilkinson's picture

One of the many tricks used by religion to try and gain credibility is to claim things like morality as a religeous concept.We can have morals and be very moralistic without being religeous.Morals are nothing more than fair play or the sense that one has good intentions and thinks good thoughts.Religion doe's not have a manopoly on good,as much as they like to create the impression that they do.I think my morals are better than religions.Do unto others is not a christian principle,they stole it from,confucious or one of those other clever people.We could quite easily throw religion away and the morals and charitable nature of people will remain the same.

Thanks

Landon Erp's picture

Thanks to both Victor and JT who've both done a good job extending the point.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

Athiesm

jtgagnon's picture

I don't even know how this is up for debate: Athiesm is NOT a belief system. Athiesm, by definition, is disbelief. Landon makes an excellent point - there are plenty of irrational athiests out there. If someone asked me what I was, I'd never respond: "an athiest." The reason I'd never respond that way is that though I do not subscribe to the notion that there is a god, that remains as just one small aspect of a much larger belief system to which I do subscribe.

-JTG
"Better to fight for something than live for nothing."

Landon

Victor Pross's picture

Good response. It's what I have been telling Rex, in so many words. You expanded on it. I think the point is clear now.

nihilism

Landon Erp's picture

Government shouldn't really be "funding" anything.

As to your point about atheism being a belief system.

From your own statement it's still just a blank slate and science is the positive belief system, though they're not mutually exclusive.

You can be a completely irrational atheist just like you can be a completely irrational religious person.

If you want to see just how irrational atheists can get I reccomend heading out to a punk rock or heavy metal show. Not a lot of rationality or positivity there, but there sure is a lot of atheism.

In a lot of cases all atheism leads to is nihilism which is the one thing that is worse than any other belief system. It's people living with no moral compass, no values, no reason to continue living, or end it. No reason not to hurt another person. Even religion is better than Nihilism, because since it's centered on values (false ones) there's at least potential for sneaking a little rationality in. But nihilism flatly rejects rationality and morality.

Nihilism offers no hope for anything. Neither does religion. Neither does atheism as an end in itself.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

A clean slate

Rex Wilkinson's picture

To my mind atheism is not the removal of a belief system it is a belief system.When I throw away the ignorance of religion knowledge is what I replace it with.Atheism is all about science.Science provides the proof that religion is a load of crap and it is science that becomes the body of knowledge that I trust and call upon to explain the universe.Do you aggree that the current situation with government sucking up to religion is good?wouldn't it be better if the government used the knowledge that it has and stopped allowing religion to tell them what to do.I don't believe the government would try and tell the public that religion is real but if they can suck up to both they might get enough votes to be elected.As long as the government is funding religion so there are big numbers of religeous dickheads out there then the elections will be decided by the dickheads.And so the cycle continues.We need atheism to become as big as the churches,OR take religion down to atheism.

Wow

Landon Erp's picture

First off, that's a pretty dismal view of humanity you got there. Secondly it's called using sarcasm to turn their own words against them. Destroy them with laughter. They believe that this big powerful guy in the sky sent his only son to live a few years, meet some people and then die... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA That's stupid.

I don't give stupid ideas more consideration than they are worth. I spend my time on good ideas, thinking about them, talking them, living them.

A negation of a negative isn't a positive. If I refrain from knocking down all the buildings in the world, no new buildings are going to appear unless they are built. You're focusing on avoiding knocking them down, I'm focused on building.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

Rex...I will address your

Victor Pross's picture

Rex...I will address your post when I return from dinner. You say some interesting things and I will answer your points in due course.

Adam and adequate analysis

Rex Wilkinson's picture

I aggree with most of what you have said but I have been an atheist since I was 6 years old,43 years of being an atheist I think is long enought to feel that I have given the subject adequate analysis.I don't have a problem with Objectivism as such but if we can't get society to grasp something as simple as the fact that we evolved.How are we possibly going to expand their minute brains to grasp something as obscure as Objectivism.Lets face it the average person can;t tune a VCR or set up a computer,or understand philosophy.If we are going to affect the thinking of the masses I feel Objectivism goes over the heads of the common person,and they need short sharp and simple statements like there is no god to hold their attention.

Rex writes:..."And it is the

Victor Pross's picture

Rex writes:..."And it is the acceptance of no god that starts one on the voyage of discovery.In the old days the search for knowledge was one of the great driving forces..."

Yes, yes, this is following along the line of what I argued for before:

[ATHEISM] only clears the cognitive landscape, if you will. What you fill that void with becomes a great importance.Objectivism does not crusade for atheism as such. A-theism is a logical conclusion of a rational philosophy."

Now do you see were we agree: Atheism is great to CLEAR THE MENTAL LANDSCAPE so that POSITIVE things can grow on the land. That positive force is one thing: REASON.

Victor

Rex Wilkinson's picture

I get the point you are making,I can't aggree that atheism is a zero,if we accept that there is no god then there is a mountain of therefore's that follow.And it is the acceptance of no god that starts one on the voyage of discovery.In the old days the search for knowledge was one of the great driving forces and for some strange reason when we finaly said we have worked it out knowledge all of a sudden seemed to loose favour.The reason was simple,the knowledge didn;t support fundementalism,so then society has this problem,We are a christian based society who's knowledge is atheism,a bit of a contradiction,it's no wonder we have so much mental illness.!!!

Rex

Victor Pross's picture

Rex...read my post...that I have just submitted below, and consider my words as you want me to consider yours.

Landons serious

Rex Wilkinson's picture

In case you haven't managed to work it out yet we live in a religeous dictatorship,disguised as a democrasy.When the pioneers set up the laws it was all about the white christians and no Maori superstition was going to get charitable status.White christians making laws for the white christians.Most of those laws still exist and until people like myself rock the boat hard enough,we will be stuck in this religeous dictatorship being fed on the lies that we have a democracy.We can vote in any religeous party we want?but hang on a minute I would like to vote for an atheist party,which one is that?why is it that atheism can't get going.Because the law and the church are both working together to make sure atheism never gets a fair chance.Like the old saying,NEVER GIVE A SUCKER AN EVEN BREAK,we the atheists are seen as the suckers and we havn't managed to rise above the laws designed to stop us,because we'er too stupid to see whats happening,we are being disciminated against and can't see it!!!!

Rex

Victor Pross's picture

Thank you for the compliments. Believe me, I have given you all due consideration or else I would not be answering your posts.

As I'm doing now.

You wrote: "I can't keep pushing a negative without being pro something?,I don't see that bagging religion is a negative, it’s a positive, would we be negative to say that Saddam needs to be stopped, is it negative to say war is bad, ignorance is the problem.I,m pro knowledge,pro reality,I believe to demote religion would be a positive thing to achieve for the world,I'm positive about this."

I don't see being critical of religion a negative either, Rex, but from what framework is that negativity coming from? Collectivists and socialists can be negative of religion as well. Postmodernist nihilists (who are against everything, including rationality) are negative of religion. So what? Rex, the enemies of my enemies are not my friends. There is no question that you must take a stand for positive values.

I do not define myself by what I'm NOT. I define myself by what I AM. And what I am, speaking in terms of ideas and philosophy--is an Objectivist. That means, logically following from this specific philosophic base, I'm an atheist. My atheism logically stems from a positive framework: reason and reality. Communists, for example, are notorious atheists--but they are not for rationality.

You ask if it’s a negative that Saddam needs to be stopped. No, it's a positive--but only within a context and from a philosophic framework. Would it be positive to enforce the draft to have unwilling men and women fight every form of tyranny in the world? No, because military conscription is a violation of rights. And did you know that during WW2 that the Nazis and communists were at loggerheads? Does that make either of them my friends because…they are against each other??

**

Landon on Swearing

Rex Wilkinson's picture

I don't think swearing is a sin,a sin is a concept I don't accept as real.It's a religeous fantasy.To refer to god or sin or jesus is to my mind supporting the madness by acknowledging it's presence.I would like to live in a society that has removed all such ignorance from common language.Religion has done a good job in reducing the occurance of the word atheism,When I tried to start my charitable trust we would put adds in the paper for an athist flatmate just to see the word in print.The Buy Sell tried to stop us untill we insisted that they would allso have to remove the christain flatmate adds.Religion is actively trying to git rid of atheism,I'm just returning the favour.There are zero atheist trusts in NZ and hundreds of christian ones,but there's deffinately NO discrimination!!??

Here's the DEAL Victor

Rex Wilkinson's picture

I think your great! I don't aggree with everything you have said,I don't aggree with everything anybody has said.I do think your a nice guy and I,m sure you will give me due consideration which I couldn't say about all in here.I can't keep pushing a negative without being pro something?,I don't see that bagging religion is a negative,it's a positive,would we be negative to say that Saddam needs to be stopped,is it negative to say war is bad,ignorance is the problem.I,m pro knowledge,pro reality,I believe to demote religion would be a positive thing to acheive for the world,I'm positive about this.

Don't appologize Victor

Landon Erp's picture

I always try to resort to God Damn, Hell, Jesus Christ before I go for the other words. What Rand said about how the commonly accepted "swear words" and how they degrade the glory of the human body (especially in the context of sex) did hit home with me... So if I'm going to have a profane thought I discuss it with a profane idea... God, Jesus etc. proving how pointless the whole "only unforgivable sin" is.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

Rex,What's the deal? Talk

Victor Pross's picture

Rex,

What's the deal? Talk to me. Do you disagree with me--or don't understand what I'm trying to explain to you? Landon aswell?

Again, I say---here's the problem; most people associate 'God' with morality. To ask people to discard God is to ask them to drop a morality. Among the many falsehoods associated with religion is that moral values cannot be divorced from the belief in God. Of course, the identification of ethics with religion has no basis in fact, but that's an example of a base that you could argue from. You could argue for the Objectivist ethics--resting your case on an Objectivist epistemology and metaphysics.

Again: Remember that the prefix ‘A’ before A-theism merely means (without) and what it is ‘without’--is THEISM. That’s hardly helpful or inspiring. You must argue FOR something—-not merely rave against something. Nature rules, yes, but it also arbores a vacuum.

Rex, you can't just argue for a negation--you must offer people something positive. What on earth are you PRO about? God knows [pardon the expression] what you are anti-about.

Reason--is a positive---as is Objectivism. Atheism follows from this. Can't you understand this?

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

Would you see it as valuable

Landon Erp's picture

Would you see it as valuable to spend the same amount of effort and repitition on say, Astrology? The Easter Bunny? Crystals? ESP? Reincarnation? Tantric Sex? The Closet Monster (the one little kids see as living in their closet, not having anything to do with anything the SOLO homo's reading this may have to deal with at any time).

They are ideas that have nothing to do with reality... All giving them attention does is make it seem like they should be equated with serious issues.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

Hammering Religion

Rex Wilkinson's picture

Landon can't see the point in preaching to the converted.But we are not all atheists in here as much as we would like to believe we are.And for all the visitor's who drop in for a read if there are no blogs explaining the madness of religion then how would they get the message.Surely your not assuming that Joe blogs can read between the lines.Allso if you take a look around our world the word atheist is almost never seen,the idea that there is no god is almost never heard,as an atheist I will take every oppurtunity to put the word out there and there are not many places we can express such things.So I say keep repeating yourself,shout it from the rooftops,be heard.

Rex, I put it to you that

Victor Pross's picture

Rex, I put it to you that you are going about arguing for rationality—if, indeed, that's what you are doing--all wrong.

Here's the problem; most people associate 'God' with morality. To ask people to discard God is to ask them to drop a morality. Among the many falsehoods associated with religion is that moral values cannot be divorced from the belief in God. Of course, the identification of ethics with religion has no basis in fact, but that's an example of a base that you could argue from. You could argue for the Objectivist ethics--resting your case on an Objectivist epistemology and metaphysics. (Do you know the basics of Obectivism?)

If not...

My suggestion is to study Objectivism—a positive philosophy, versus the negativity of atheism. Remember that the prefix ‘A’ before A-theism merely means (without) and what it is ‘without’--is THEISM. That’s hardly helpful or inspiring. You must argue FOR something—-not merely rave against something. Nature rules, yes, but it also arbores a vacuum.

As I said in some other post:

Atheism offers nothing to "brain-washed" people, as I mentioned. Atheism is a negative; a void. ZERO! It only clears the cognitive landscape, if you will. What you fill that void with becomes a great importance.Objectivism does not crusade for atheism--A-theism is a logical conclusion of a rational philosophy. Is this clear now?

Victor
___________________________________________________________________

Not in a vacuum

AdamReed's picture

Rex,

The Christianists (and Islamists) don't impose their stupidities on the rest of humanity in a vacuum. I, too, see them - now that political Marxism is dead - as Problem#1. But the cultural and social system that empowers them must be transformed, radically, before they can begin to lose their enormous political power. Without Objectivism, the majority in our culture, while knowing already that evil people will do evil whether religious or not, just don't see the enormous evil that is being done by Christianity and Islam when those religions label their evils as a moral good. In this context, enormous harm is being done by such organizations as the "Atlas Society," who try to peddle a "Christianity-friendly" perversion of Objectivism. Political religionism and false moralities are certainly the world's greatest remaining evil - but targetting that evil head-on, as you seem to be doing, without adequate analysis of the cultural and social and ideological factors which empower that evil, is likely to prove counterproductive.

It's not about forgeting

Landon Erp's picture

It's not about forgeting it's a problem, it's about inducting it into a larger heirarchy of values.

While I'm agreed that left unchecked the fundamentalists will ruin everything, but they're not the only ones. And I'd rather spend my time creating something great than just plugging little holes in problems.

Objectivism is about fundamentally shifting the nature of human society, not just chasing boogymen (real though they may be).

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

Move on or cop out?

Rex Wilkinson's picture

Claudia sugests I should get over it and move on with my life.To me that is how we got to be in the mess we are in now.If we ignore the rise of fundementalism they are not going away they are getting bigger every day,If we the so called intellectuals of society sit back in our ivory towers and let it all happen,at some point in the future they will take over.We can have a nice little life and stay away from comflict and only associate with nice people.Until the day comes when the fundementalists take over and then all you don,t just bag religion type,s will be saying " how did this happen,why didn,t somebody stop them"I,m trying to stop them and your trying to stop me.

Message drowining in bad English

Laure Chipman's picture

Rex, you want us to focus on the message, but (a) we already get the message, and (b) your posts are the written equivalent of making a speech in a clown suit and expecting to be taken seriously.

Repeating myself

Rex Wilkinson's picture

Yes guilty as charged I am presenting the same old story in as many different ways as I can.You may all be correct and I,m just a bit slow on the uptake.I have become a little paranoid after finding out that the churches have been deliberatly joining all the alternative groups and twisting them into agnostic.Like the Greens,as an atheist I thought they would be my party,they are christians.I tried to join the ChCh sceptics society to find they are sceptical about everything but religion.Yes I don,t trust that I,m amongst friends because I,m so used to being surrounded by fundementalists trying to tone me down and be more accepting of religion and others rights to believe .

Because Rex...

Olivia's picture

"You say I,m preaching to the converted,so why do I appear to be the only one who wants to do something about it,to stand up and say enough is enough we can,t take this bullshit anymore". [Rex]

Because Rex, we know we don't have to take this bullshit - and don't.

You see clearly the fault in religion and its ideas - but most of us on this site already have seen it and go on to build lives based on new and better ideas. You seem to want to still just rail against the old idea. I'm sorry it had such a pronounced negative effect on your life but move on man!

Rex, my god man

Marnee's picture

Rex have you explored the rest of this site? It is a giant community of atheists -- Objectivists, who have been doing something about it for years. You see, this site in itself is "doing something", a big something, about the cultural & philosophical problems in society.

"If you only see the

JoeM's picture

"If you only see the spelling errors then I would say you have a small mind and don,t want to address the philosophy."

Rex, beware of Roland Pericles...

I used to use your same defense, focus on the idea...however, why should anyone focus on the idea when the idea is not presented clearly? Your presentation is related to your thought processes, and sloppy writing is a sign of sloppy thinking.

As to your "idea", what make you think that you are the only one doing something about it? Do you know what the listmembers do or don't deal with every day? Have you seen Duncan's INFIDEL teeshirts?

Beggining again

Rex Wilkinson's picture

You say I,m preaching to the converted,so why do I appear to be the only one who wants to do something about it,to stand up and say enough is enough we can,t take this bullshit anymore.And please try and remember that the message is the important thing here.If you only see the spelling errors then I would say you have a small mind and don,t want to address the philosophy.I got that at school from a teacher who marked my paper with a D,my classmate had the exact same information a bit neater and got a B I called her a bitch and she just happened to be behind me,I got B,s from then on.

Seconded. I really don't see

Landon Erp's picture

Seconded.

I really don't see the point in constantly hammering anti-religion to a bunch of hardcore athiests.

And seriously get some spellcheck.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

Rex, Please!

Laure Chipman's picture

I pretty much agree with everything you have posted here.  I would guess that most readers of this site would be in substantial agreement.  I am a little puzzled by your hammering on this one point on religion again and again, to an audience that doesn't need it.

However, I really hope you are not posting such things on any websites that are less sympathetic to your views.  The reason I say this is that your spelling, grammar, and punctuation are atrocious, and this will keep your message from being taken seriously.  Please, please use Microsoft Word or some other product to edit your posts before submitting them.  It will catch most of the errors.  Also, I recommend "Warriner's English Grammar and Composition (Complete Course)," which can be purchased used through sellers on Amazon.com.

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