The history of the "Five Civilized Tribes" is interesting and complex. I agree with most, but not all, of your points. However, I don't intend to hijack this thread in a side debate.

The Infidel shirts are cool and should be worn proudly!

Actually, the Cherokee never quite "joined civilization". They never abandoned the idea that they were a separate nation or the idea that they were a separate tribe, distinct from the United States.

It would be as if the Irish had formed a separate shadow Ireland within the United States, with its own laws and the mandate to negotiate with the gov't on behalf of the Irish people as a collective unit.

That said, there was tremendous prejudice against non-whites in that period, not just Indians of course. Slavery persisted in the United States for another 20-30 years. So the injustice against the Cherokees was no worse than it was toward many other non-whites. This was of course a world-wide attitude, hardly unique to the United States - and of course not unique to whites.

The Cherokees themselves owned slaves and took those slaves with them on the "Trail of Tears"!

"The Indians didn't need the buffalo. What the Indians needed was to join civilization."

The Cherokee Nation "joined civilization" and the U.S. Government responded with the Trail of Tears.

What was wrong with hunting the buffalo to near extinction? I suppose we could have done what they do in India and have bison plodding down the streets of Des Moines and Oklahoma City. I understand the buffalo is not well suited as a domesticated animal. Today, it might be as an exotic exception in small numbers but it was hardly worth the trouble in the 19th Century.

The Indians didn't need the buffalo. What the Indians needed was to join civilization. Some did and successfully. It should have been a no brainer. We offered them the opportunity to leapfrog 1,000's of years of history. No doubt they experienced prejudice, but then so did others, e.g. the Chinese and freed Blacks (who didn't yearn to return to African tribalism), not to mention many successive waves of European immigrants, especially the Irish.

I do believe that the Indians had as much or more to do with hunting the bison to near extinction than the white man did. This must be true; I read it in a book.

--Brant

Atheism is a blank slate. Nothing more. It needs a philosophy to fill the void. Atheism is NOT philosophy. It is not debatable. Look up the word "atheism" in a dictionary for crying out loud.

Just the fact that you see atheism as a nothing sugests you don't grasp any of what I call philosophy.And the idea that you would try and defend what the pioneers did blows me away.And what about the poor old buffalo,wiped out in their millions just so the indians would starve,lovely these christian pioneers,such noble people with god on their side.A license to commit any amount of crime it seemed.

Sadly, this is a fake according to Snopes.com. It's bloody funny though:

Joe, I'm glad you like the shirt - it suits you

What happened in America to the Indians is not at all comparable to what was done to the Jews by Hitler. Rex, I'm not even going to respond to your posts anymore...they don't deserve it...you strike me as being largely ignorant about pretty much everything.

-JTG
"Better to fight for something than live for nothing."

Ok, buddy, you've done it...you've gone and pissed me off. First, if you spent anytime reading anything that I've written on this site, you'd be aware that I am not religious - in fact, I entirely oppose belief in anything that is not verifiably based on objective reality. Before you go around making baseless accusations you need to actually inform yourself as to who it is you are accusing of what. I am an objectivist; if you do not know what that is, you shouldn't even be commenting on this site.

Second, the something I fight for is NOT religion - rather, I vigorously fight for reason in a world where most people live and fight for nothing. The quote attached to my posts reflects my personal intentions to fight for reason and live a life defined by objective rationality. The quote, interestingly, also comes from General Patton, one of the great American generals, known for his kick-ass mentality, something I aspire to. As someone previously noted on one of your other posts - know your audience. I would like to reiterate that suggestion.

-JTG
"Better to fight for something than live for nothing."

I find it astonishing that you can imagine religion to be something and reality to be nothing.Your something is an illusion and doesn't exist but this is more than science and the facts according to you.The pioneers thought they were fighting for something when they systematicaly wiped out the north American Indian with the deliberate use of germ warefare,god was clearing the land of vermin for the chosen one's.And this was after the west was suposed to be a secular democracy,the cruel and ruthless christians useing germ warefare and we were suposed to be a secular democracy?what happened in America is just as ignorant as hitler was so don't try and say to your civilised.

before

and after

I got yer holy war right here, Mohammed.

The muslims would love to see everyone from the west wearing a infidel t shirt,why do it for them?do you see them running round selling I'm stupid t shirts to each other,because thats what it represents to them,your labeling yourself stupid.

Actually I believe you are on to a good idea, Rex. Their(Muslims) selling each other "I'm stupid t shirts" would be quite apropos.

L W

Awesome shirt! I need to get one...you've inspired me.

REX: Your comment is absurd and really quite silly. We should all go and buy infidel shirts - capitalism at its best.

-JTG
"Better to fight for something than live for nothing."

The muslims would love to see everyone from the west wearing a infidel t shirt,why do it for them?do you see them running round selling I'm stupid t shirts to each other,because thats what it represents to them,your labeling yourself stupid.

Dunc, your aspect is quite Romanesque.

You'd make a good Augustus

Why don't the people go to the other half of the city?

--Brant

You'll starve soon enough.

--Brant

The knife is just a Buck 119 - which I carry around the house & garden to augment my Pika when 'something bad' is happening in Auckland.

The 'something bad' then was a methamphetamine-addled terminally ill gang member, who had vowed to continue robbing stores and mugging people until he died from cancer or was killed by Police.

Currently, we're without power to half of the city after snowfall and storms took out both of the major feeds into Auckland.

Sheeple are driving around in a daze without traffic lights to control them (and crashing - I saw two ambulances during the 10 minutes I stayed in the CBD). Businesses are closing for the day, people are stuck in the city without food or water, or the means of obtaining them because EFTPOS and ATM machines are down.

I on the other hand am sitting at work with my backpack containing (amongst other things) a day's food & water, a blanket, torch, batteries, and tools, chuckling to myself.

Hopefully some lessons will be learned from all of this.

I look like a frickin elf in my picture.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

... he's just very pleased to see you.

Are you also wearing the new knife mentioned in the other thread?

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

Don't mess with New Zealand jihadists. "Duncan Bayne : KIWI INFIDEL" is ready for you!

- Jason

You wear that t-shirt well. You seem pumped with pride: "I am infidel, hear me roar!"

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy