EMOTIONS: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

Victor Pross's picture
Submitted by Victor Pross on Sat, 2006-06-10 01:16

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The example of actual shifting sand in debate:

Victor Pross's picture

For those of you following this highly intellectual debate--here is the context where I call Mark a "shifting sand" and I believe it was called gor given the context where I dubbed him thus.

Now it seems like tit-for-tat and he springs the same phrase on me---from the context of my bailing out when he hurled childish insults at me (..."you remind me of Bogart in that film, the one where he is insane..." blah, bla, bla.

One can read the posts themselves, of course.

______________________________________________________________________

You wrote: "It’s all about ego, Victor. We are all experts at justifying our actions, and as much as we like to don the mantle of Objectivsim, we see things differently at times. Most of “those” people that you would accuse of arguing “dubiously or dishonestly,” would not agree with your assessment. And if they were to judge your arguments to be dubious and dishonest, you would tell them what?"

NOW YOU SAY:

"No, I am not saying any of those things. What I am saying is, that in your post, you are stereotyping the contributors of this blog in a way that you yourself would not like to be stereotyped. And setting yourself up as a judge."

Right! It's the same thing! Of course! It's as clear as day! So you are one of 'those' people! Dishonest, that is.

Now, let's take a good look again, side by side:

"It’s all about ego, Victor. We are all experts at justifying our actions, and as much as we like to don the mantle of Objectivsim, we see things differently at times...[SECOND PART, CLAIMING TO BE A RE-WORDING OF THE FIRST PART]: What I am saying is, that in your post, you are stereotyping the contributors of this blog in a way that you yourself would not like to be stereotyped. And setting yourself up as a judge."

Yep--same remarks, Mr. Shifting sand.

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Tag, I'm it?

Victor Pross's picture

Tag, I'm it?

?

Mark Dow's picture

Mr. Shifting Sands

Mark.

Victor Pross's picture

You ask: "And why is it, that whenever you catch someone in a contradiction (especially a contradiction in behavior), they always seem to say something like, “I’m done, I need to move onto things that are worthy of my time.”

In all fairness, Mark, when you descend the debate (or conversation) to the level of a Jr. High-Jinks manner by making fun of me with the whole insane Boogie movie thing--of course I have better things to do! Why do I want to submit myself to a retrograde memory of “Na, na, na, na!”? Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to "tell on you" but I think this mode of conduct really speaks for itself. Can you admit that?

In any case, with that, yes, you lost my interest. Don't take it as a victory of winning an argument.

I concede no contradiction on my part, sorry.

You wrote: I’ve noticed a lot of SOLO’s detractors seem to do that.

No Mark, I’m not a Solo detractor.

[by the way, enjoy me current post 'the hatred of Objectivism is the hatred of objectivity]

OK, I will

Mark Dow's picture

“We become sarcastic or patronizing or hostile. (In other words, we become Mark).”

“We use loaded words, words that have strong emotional connotations. (We become Mark)”

“We make jokes at the expense of the other person. (We become Mark).”

Oh Gee Victor, I am sure glad these aren’t broad sweeping generalizations (without proof), and there is nothing in your posts that attack anyone's character. I wouldn’t like to think that “you,” of all people, would do something like that!

I especially like this one, “We refuse to admit that the other person may have an occasional valid point and that there may be at least some truth in what is being stated. (We become Mark).”

So I am obligated to acknowledge that some of your points are true, or I am not being good sport?

And why is it, that whenever you catch someone in a contradiction (especially a contridiction in behavior), they always seem to say something like, “I’m done, I need to move onto things that are worthy of my time.”

I’ve noticed that some of SOLO’s detractors seem to do that.

Oh, I see. Is this a

Victor Pross's picture

Oh, I see. Is this a scientific fact? Or did you simply attach onto me the tag "insane" and you arbitrarily grab hold of any of my words as a "proof" (keep smiling)

Mark, the way that you pursue this makes me think that you are merely projecting yourself onto me. Calm down, and keep smiling. There are anger management courses.

Go ahead, have the last word now. I'm done. I need to move onto things that are worthy of my time. I prooved my points...you demonstrated--exactly--the type of person EMOTIONS covered. Again, I can't thank you enough.

------------------------------------------------------------

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

Believe me

Mark Dow's picture

Anyone who says, “keep smiling” all the time is one pin prick away from detonating!

Yes, I have emotions. As you

Victor Pross's picture

Yes, I have emotions. As you do...demonstrated loud and clear. Move along now. What is the purpose of this exchange now?

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

Victor,

Mark Dow's picture

I have a feeling that on another post, I would probably agree and respect most of your viewpoints, and I might even admire your knowledge of Objectivism, but you got to let a little air out of that balloon of yours. You are about ready to explode man!

I love this quote

Victor Pross's picture

“The Argument from Intimidation is a confession of intellectual impotence.”
Ayn Rand, The Virtue of Selfishness, 1964

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

I judge. I leacture.

Victor Pross's picture

Yes. I judge. I leacture. You demonstrated.

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

victor

Mark Dow's picture

Are you lecturing me again? I am sure glad your not getting personal!

From EMOTIONS

Victor Pross's picture

(1)We become sarcastic or patronizing or hostile. (In other words, we become Mark).

(2)We use language that is evaluative without defending or documenting those evaluations.(We become Mark)

(3) We use loaded words, words that have strong emotional connotations.
Instead of addressing ourselves to the issue, we aim our remarks at the other person: at his weak spots, his personality or his style of presentation. (We become Mark).

(4) We make jokes at the expense of the other person. (We become Mark).

(5) We do not listen carefully to the other person; we select what suits our purpose and we reject what does not suit our purpose. (We become Mark).

(6) We refuse to admit that the other person may have an occasional valid point and that there may be at least some truth in what is being stated. (We become Mark).

Thanks, Mark. Keep on typing in.

Let's repeat this one:

Instead of addressing ourselves to the issue, we aim our remarks at the other person: at his weak spots, his personality or his style of presentation.

Thanks for the demonstration, Mark.

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

Ah, the Strawberries

Mark Dow's picture

"Ah, but the strawberries! That's, that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes, but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, and with, with geometric logic, that, that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox did exist..."

Ah, gunning for me, were

Victor Pross's picture

Ah, gunning for me, were you? That's what you admit. Well, now that you have fessed up to trying to bait me...and with the childish remarks comparing me to an unstable character in a 1950s Bogart movie...this conversation is over.

I think my whole post--EMOTIONS--has been demonstrated and validated, and I thank you for that, Mark. It seems that it attracted the type of person I spoke about, like flies to a no-pest strip. I truly do. Keep smiling.

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

And

Mark Dow's picture

“It is backed-up with evidence that you "shifted the sands" in this...um...debate. I showed that. Read the thread where I demonstrate it--it's there. But now you call me "insane." Okay, whatever. “

You sound like Captain Queeg in the Caine Mutiny

“(keep smiling)”

And God I hate it when you say stuff like that!

You are right again!

Mark Dow's picture

You are right Victor, I was bating you.

I felt in your post that you were lecturing the contributors of this blog, and I smelled hypocrisy.

And how were my questions "leading?"

Mark,I think regardless of

Victor Pross's picture

Mark,

I think regardless of what or how I said ANYTHING--you were already heading to the "conclusion" that I'm a prickly personality--no matter how often I tell you I was enjoying the conversation.

I think that if anybody reads this thread will see that it is YOU that was trying to bait me. You came into this discussion with a "I'm gonna show this guy" stance.

You were asking me leading questions, and when I didn't give you the answers you wanted--you nevertheless make your assertion.

That's the prickly and dishonest person. And my negative summary of you is NOT an example of the type of person I am--it's a view of who I think you are (within the confines of how you demonstrated yourself in this thread).

It is backed-up with evidence that you "shifted the sands" in this...um...debate. I showed that. Read the thread where I demonstrate it--it's there. But now you call me "insane." Okay, whatever.

(keep smiling)

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

Now then?

Mark Dow's picture

“Now then--a question comes to mind: Is there something wrong in judging people? You seem to look down on it. If so, Why?”

I think your question (and its tone) is just another attempt to sound professorial, and get this argument on a plain where you can “show off your intellectual abilities.” You don’t care about my opinions, and you are just trying to bate me, but the subject is “you,” Victor, and whether you meet your own standards of discourse. And I think you’ve demonstrated in this thread that you don’t (i.e. Mr. Shifting Sands?). You got personal with me, and you just don’t want to admit it!

And I sure hope you are not trying to just win this argument for the sake of wining an argument?

And yes, “I look down on judging people.”

And Victor, if you take that last statement literally you are insane.

Don't understand your first question.

Victor Pross's picture

Asking a question is not "changing the subject." I'm expanding the conversation. I will answer your questions, gladly, if you answer mine. Anyway, the question is within our talk.

No, I'm not acting prickly, at least not in my conversations with you. But I have been in the past. That's why I included myself in this original post of EMOTIONS---I was honest. Prickly NOW...with you? Frankly, I'm enjoying this exchange. Is that cleared up now? [insert happy--not Pollyanna--face here].

Now then--a question comes to mind: Is there something wrong in judging people? You seem to look down on it. If so, Why?

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

Quit trying...

Mark Dow's picture

“Huh? Never said you debased me.”

Well what did you mean then, “I'm not. But you are…,” when the subject is debasement. I guess I thought you were posing that as a question.

“A question comes to mind: Is there something wrong in judging people? You seem to look down on it. If so, Why?”

Victor, quit trying to change the subject. The question at hand here is, have you acted in a prickly manner, especially after telling the rest of us not to act prickly.

Huh? Never said you debased me.

Victor Pross's picture

Tone of voice?? Words--on a screen--can come across as anything the other person cares to place on it. Communication is much better face-to-face, but that's not too practical.

"...And setting yourself up as a judge."

A question comes to mind: Is there something wrong in judging people? You seem to look down on it. If so, Why?

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

How?

Mark Dow's picture

“No, I’m not (Debasing), but you are right”

How have I debased you?

And I question the sincerity of your statement; “I should have a picture--so you could see my smiling, playful and innocent face.”

I think you only said that to change your tone of voice, and to distract from the fact that you had become a “prickly personality.” And it sounded smarmy too.

No, I'm not. But you are

Victor Pross's picture

No, I'm not. But you are right: I should have a picture--so you could see my smiling, playful and innocent face.

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

Mr. Shifting sand?

Mark Dow's picture

You aren't trying to debase me are you Victor? It's a pretty strange way to end this thread!

shifting sands

Victor Pross's picture

You wrote: "It’s all about ego, Victor. We are all experts at justifying our actions, and as much as we like to don the mantle of Objectivsim, we see things differently at times. Most of “those” people that you would accuse of arguing “dubiously or dishonestly,” would not agree with your assessment. And if they were to judge your arguments to be dubious and dishonest, you would tell them what?"

NOW YOU SAY:

"No, I am not saying any of those things. What I am saying is, that in your post, you are stereotyping the contributors of this blog in a way that you yourself would not like to be stereotyped. And setting yourself up as a judge."

Right! It's the same thing! Of course! It's as clear as day! So you are one of 'those' people! Dishonest, that is.

Now, let's take a good look again, side by side:

"It’s all about ego, Victor. We are all experts at justifying our actions, and as much as we like to don the mantle of Objectivsim, we see things differently at times...[SECOND PART, CLAIMING TO BE A RE-WORDING OF THE FIRST PART]: What I am saying is, that in your post, you are stereotyping the contributors of this blog in a way that you yourself would not like to be stereotyped. And setting yourself up as a judge."

Yep--same remarks, Mr. Shifting sand.

Mark snip:

Victor Pross's picture

"This may seem unkind and unfair, and maybe I am one of those people your are talking about, but I had the same reaction to your post that I had when Rodney King said, “Can’t we all just get along!”

Mark, Mark...I'm not advocating a Pollyanna approach. You're emotions are getting in the way of understanding what I'm really saying. Not being an MSK is not Pollyanna. And if you are one of 'those' people that I'm talking about---you would be the first person to know it...deep down.

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

No, I am not saying any of those things.

Mark Dow's picture

“then I suppose that would include your response to Phil's post--and Phil's writing of his post?”

Which Post? I think you have me confused with another Mark. Sorry, I need to start using a photo here at SOLO (you too).

“You see, now I'm truly curious: What are you really getting at? Are you saying that it's all hopelessly subjective? Are you saying that we all---human beings, that is---are just playing mind games with ourselves and others? That all positions are honest and dishonest as the speaker believes it to be...or believes it not to be?”

No, I am not saying any of those things. What I am saying is, that in your post, you are stereotyping the contributors of this blog in a way that you yourself would not like to be stereotyped. And setting yourself up as a judge.

You write: "Get rid of the

Victor Pross's picture

You write: "Get rid of the desire to be seen as a nice guy, then the comfortability factor for aggressive and useful debate may have the possiblity of kicking in!"

Ah, Claudia, that 'nice guy' inclusion is merely my being coy. Did it come across as something else? Even so, would the 'nice guy' thing REALLY get in the way of comfortability? Eye

Also: "Objectivists shouldn't care about being nice for fuck's sake."

I'm beginning to think that what I wanted to convey in my post is getting lost. Maybe it's due for a re-write. Damn!

Victor:
Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy
(or no Mr.Nice guy any longer!)

Victor again

Olivia's picture

Get rid of the desire to be seen as a nice guy, then the comfortability factor for aggressive and useful debate may have the possiblity of kicking in!

Objectivists shouldn't care about being nice for fuck's sake.

Mark

Victor Pross's picture

Well, whatever you're definition of 'ego' is here, I can't say. But it not something I'm inclined to dive into right now. You say that we are 'experts at justifying our actions'--then I suppose that would include your response to Phil's post--and Phil's writing of his post?

Let's take a look at this part right here: "Most of 'those' people that you would accuse of arguing 'dubiously or dishonestly,' would not agree with your assessment. And if they were to judge your arguments to be dubious and dishonest, you would tell them what?"

You see, now I'm truly curious: What are you really getting at? Are you saying that it's all hopelessly subjective? Are you saying that we all---human beings, that is---are just playing mind games with ourselves and others? That all positions are honest and dishonest as the speaker believes it to be...or believes it not to be? What does the actual truth become in this mental mosh? Can we know the facts? Or does our 'ego' get in the way of knowing facts? Even those who 'don the mantle of Objectivism'?

Please, tell me. What is the wider implication to be drawn here?

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

This may seem unkind...

Mark Dow's picture

This may seem unkind and unfair, and maybe I am one of those people your are talking about, but I had the same reaction to your post that I had when Rodney King said, “Can’t we all just get along!”

And what are you going to do with this annoyance?

Mark Dow's picture

It’s all about ego, Victor. We are all experts at justifying our actions, and as much as we like to don the mantle of Objectivsim, we see things differently at times. Most of “those” people that you would accuse of arguing “dubiously or dishonestly,” would not agree with your assessment. And if they were to judge your arguments to be dubious and dishonest, you would tell them what?

Mark

Victor Pross's picture

You write: "By pointing out the fact that others may debase an opponent, you seem to be elevating yourself."

So what if I am? Why wouldn't I want to rise above 'debasing people'--opponents included, if no purpose it thereby served? I also elevate myself above all sorts of other people. Care for a few examples?

You also wrote: "In fact, as you read this, I wonder what emotion is going through 'you' right now!"

I'm sorry, Mark, you're going to have to help me here. What are you trying to say here with this type of remark? You speak as if I said somewhere in my post that I was except from emotions. I’m not sure what point you think you’re making, but to address the commit: The emotion going through me right now is annoyed bafflement.

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

Sorry I didn't see your next post!

Mark Dow's picture

You are quick on the up-take Victor. And I do like your other posts.

And Victor

Mark Dow's picture

“Some people argue very dubiously and dishonestly…bitterly trying to hammer others into the ground with their cataclysms and dogma---desperate to paint a person in a corner”

Again, so what? By pointing out the fact that others may debase an opponent, you seem to be elevating yourself. In fact, as you read this, I wonder what emotion is going through "you" right now!

Mark

Victor Pross's picture

"Ego" is not the word I would use...but I get your meaning.

Mark, I have included myself in the post for failing to practice what I now speak against. Maybe you gave my post a fast snap-shot, I don't know. Speaking of that which I speak ill of, I have done it, yes. I said that I don't like myself for it. However, I'm trying to become a better person and I struggle--honestly--to understand Objectivism and apply it to my life. Maybe there are others who do likewise...or not. Well, they know best, don't they?

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

And Victor

Mark Dow's picture

And your ego never comes into play when you argue?

Well, I consider

Victor Pross's picture

Well, I consider Objectivists, by and large, a higher form of life on the planet—-because they (we) have chosen to exercise the capacity that distinguishes us from all other creatures. We have embrased a philosophy that is true and right. If that's "royal"--so be it.

(Mind you, I’m both serious and I have my tongue planted firmly in my cheek here). Still, why would this cloud the issue?

As to the bitching, I have no problem with disagreements. It’s the nature of those disagreements that fall flat on me---and I explained what the problem is in the post, at least as I see it.

Some people argue very dubiously and dishonestly…bitterly trying to hammer others into the ground with their cataclysms and dogma---desperate to paint a person in a corner—-and not always in the quest for facts---but rather to place such-and-such—the asshole—in his place. The desire to "show-up" someone is there--if only to show off their intellectual abilities. Ah, so smug and cocky in their peacock manner. Don't you see it? (Why don't we just call it the MKS factor?)

Don't get me wrong--bitching is fine...but I'm speaking of something else.

Mind you, this is less true today than the old posts I have read from the vintage files. Wow, down right ugly on so many issues.

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

victor

Olivia's picture

The clarity of your post is clouded by the royal "we".

Are you saying that you don't like the bitching?

update, folks.

Victor Pross's picture

See the post "One Saddamite Maggot Less!" and come back and read my post again. Case closed. Eye

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

Hi, Mark.

Victor Pross's picture

You ask: "What if you like 'prickly personalities and the jagged topics that cut both ways'?"

What if you like it? You have answered your own question. If one likes it...they like it. My post was addressing those who don't. A recent post by Micael Moeller's address to phil 'Debunking Defeatism' may very well be a current example of what I tried to convey in EMOTIONS. I'm not sure, but let's see.

Victor

Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy

Prickly personalities

Mark Dow's picture

What if you like "prickly personalities and the jagged topics that cut both ways"?

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