Boxing

Jason Quintana's picture
Submitted by Jason Quintana on Sat, 2007-01-06 21:47

This is a bit of a longshot, because boxing is a fairly unpopular sport these days. But are there any boxing fans here on SOLO? I believe that boxing is the greatest of all sports. I am a fanatical follower of American (pro and college) football and NBA basketball, but nothing gets me more excited then a big fight. There is something about the one on one duel, the athletic skill and the rich history of this sport that puts it on a different level. When it is great there is nothing that comes close. I also enjoy the spectacle and the pageantry that surrounds it.

Unfortunately this is a weak era for boxing. We don't have the equivalent of an Ali/Frazier/Foreman or a Leonard/Duran/Hagler set of talent or rivalries in any of the divisions today. Beyond de la Hoya, there are very few fighters who are even known outside of boxing circles in the United States. The heavyweight division is now dominated by slow lumbering giants rather then major talents. However, there are still very good fighters and very good fights out there especially in the smaller weight classes. It is also one of the only sports that is truly international. Of the fighters today my current favorites are :

1. Oscar de la Hoya (USA)
2. Manny Pacquiao (Philippines)
3. Joe Calzaghe (UK)
4. Juan Diaz (USA)
5. Wladimir Klitchko (Ukrainian)

So are there any boxing fans out there on SOLO? And if so do you have any favorite boxers, current or past?

- Jason


( categories: )

Funny and TRUE

Jason Quintana's picture

I like Hatton a lot, but everything Floyd said in that interview (besides him retiring from fighting in the U.S. or anywhere else any time soon) is about right Smiling

It would be a good fight for both fighters though because of the $$$ involved with the villain Mayweather coming to the UK to fight the country's most famous fighter. It would be a great spectacle.

- Jason

Jason D. Quintana is not associated with the Ayn Rand Institute -- neither as a writer nor as a speaker.

It's so difficult to find a good shoe buckler these days

Fraser Stephen-Smith's picture

This is brilliant - boxing discourse at it's best. This will make me giggle for days.

"Floyd Mayweather has launched an astonishing attack on IBF light-welterweight champion Ricky Hatton, calling him 'nothing but a fat man'.

Former four-weight world champion Mayweather was expected to quit the sport after his upcoming bout with Oscar De La Hoya but he has now hinted he might carry on and face Hatton. 'Ricky Hatton ain't nothing but a fat man. I'm going to punch him in his beer belly,' he told BBC Sport.

'He ain't good enough to be my sparring partner. I'm retiring in America, that don't mean I'm retiring in the UK. All he can do is punch and hold, punch and hold and wrestle. It's obvious that his fights are not more exciting than mine.

Nobody even knows Ricky Hatton. He came over to America and nobody even came to see him fight. When I retire, I'll get Ricky Hatton to wash my clothes and cut my lawn and buckle my shoes.'"

250

Jason Quintana's picture

Personally I would like to see a 250 cut off. That would get some of the bloated guys down in weight and it would give guys in the 210, 220 range who traditionally dominated the division a chance again.

But in any case, about Lewis, he fought some other good fighters like Vitali Klitchko. The thing about him that is impressive is that in the cases where he lost, he came back and beat all of the guys that beat him. He was a champion in a weak era, but he was a solid champion who cleaned out the division. Not an all time great, but a guy who I think would compete with the all time greats.

I PRAY for a guy of comparable ability to show up among the current crop of bums in this division. There was a "heavyweight championship fight" (Liakhovich vs. Briggs) here in Phoenix for one for the belts a few months ago. I went of course, and boy was it one of the most pathetic fights I've ever seen. Lewis could have defeated both in the same night.

- Jason

Jason D. Quintana is not associated with the Ayn Rand Institute -- neither as a writer nor as a speaker.

You may be right, Jason...

atlascott's picture

...about Lennox Lewis.  I tend to judge him too harshly.  Even several years removed from his hey day, he would still probably whip any of the current titleholders readily.  He is, at least, a gentleman.  In my mind, he belongs nowhere near a best of all time list, though, and for reasons that may be circumstantial. 

Who has he fought?  A sick, old Evander Holyfield?  A broken, pathetic Mike Tyson, post consecutive ass-whippings by Holyfield?  He has put in some really, really average showings agains some really average opponents.  I just don't get where all the love comes from, other than the fact that he is a gentleman, and that is a very pleasant sign, indeed.

I agree that they should make a 230-plus weight class.  No one under 6'5" needs to be more than that, and those who need to be can fight in some monster weight class.  Real athletes can make weight and the freaks can fight in the freak show.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur!

Scott

Landon Erp's picture

Agreed on UFC pre-rules. I liked it back when there were no time limits (Though I'm pretty sure if there weren't Shamrock vs. Severin II might still be going on to this day) or weight divisions. It's interesting to see what a guy who's severley undersized will do in order to get a win.

I also agree boxers/kickboxers/martial artists. A lot of kick style fighting opens up your defense and boxing is much more controled in that aspect. Though I do remember from what I saw in the early days of UFC was pure strikers getting routinely humiliated by decent level grapplers. Granted that lead to a lot of the homogenization you see in MMA today where everyone is a striker and a grappler.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

Scott, good post. I

Jason Quintana's picture

Scott, good post. I disagree about Lewis. While somewhat boring, I suspect he would be a top heavyweight in any era. I wish that he would get in the gym and come out of retirement. The trouble with today's heavyweights is that they are just too big. There really needs to be a "super heavyweight" division.

Right now one of the belt holders (Valuev) is over 7 feet tall and weighs 330 pounds. He doesn't have any skills at all but of course a top notch 220 pound fighter has no chance because of the size differential. Back in the old days heavyweights were 210, 215, maybe 225 if they were big. In the modern era it is difficult for really skilled guys to compete even if we could find them. The Klitchkos are actually skilled, but they aren't always exciting and can look rather slow.

- Jason

Jason D. Quintana is not associated with the Ayn Rand Institute -- neither as a writer nor as a speaker.

Boxing, Kickboxing, UFC

atlascott's picture

I'm a pretty big fan of boxing and did some of it when I was younger.  It is such a crooked sport, its sad.  It is very exciting to watch, though.

UFC was better before all the rules and rounds.  I liked it bc you got to see what happens when 2 guys go at it, period, short of biting or eye gouging until one quits or gets knocked out.  Talk about a test of skill and conditioning!  Grapplers have a phenomenal advantage in results in UFC.  At this point, you'd better learn to grapple if you are going to even think about winning.  A knock out by striking on your feet is rare, and the best of them are high level grapplers with years of experience who learn some boxing and other striking.

It used to be that a boxer would kick the shit out of Muay Thai fighter, kickboxer, etc.  I attribute that to better defense (kicking opens your defense wide open) and more scrupulously learned hand techniques (dont have to learn a dozen kicks).  I also attribute it to the fact that people who kick tend to have a background in traditional martial arts, which stress katas or kata like repetitive practice of technique outside of an actual fight or opponent.  Boxers tend to spar--alot.  There is nothing like learning some technique, and then fighting alot ot make you effective.  With the UFC's popularity and the stress on actual combat effectiveness, alot of the above might not be the case anymore.

The huge eastern European fighters in boxing now all tend to be slow moving, low action types guys who all  run out of gas and try to win on reach advantage and a big punch.  It make you wonder about their discipline in training.  Watch some classic fights, and watch heavyweights of the past go close to full speed close to non-stop.  In bosing, heavyweight is still about the only show in town, and right now, there aren't too many exciting heavyweights to watch.  None, really. Even Lennox Lewis cannot be considereed a top tier fighter.  He held the crown in the absence of anyone better, in a sea of an aged Holyfield and a joke of a Mike Tyson.  In fact, Evander Holyfield may have been the most inspirational and exciting heavyweight since Ali.

I know, 'what about Tyson?'  Here's what about Tyson.  Heavyweight boxing was at its worst period ever, bar none, when he came on the scene.  Some of his fights were fixed.  The others were the product of Cus D'mato training him hard, forcing him to throw combinations, and making him use some defense.  As soon as Cus died and Tyson let Kevin Rooney go, he was basically done as a fighter--slow fade.  And, he is such an utterly irredeemable shitbag, scum, that he deserved no place--AND I MEAN NO PLACE--in boxing history.  Someone should shoot him in the face and end it before he gets thrown back in jail and taxpayer s have to support his retirement.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur!

Transition

Landon Erp's picture

I heard that fighters do worse when they go from a more liberal sport to a more conservative one.

If you go from Muay Thai to Boxing you're only left with one of the four attacks you had in your previous sport (IE: no knees, elbows, or kicks). This is why experienced and talented strikers were routinely dispatched in the early days of UFC after having to deal with grapples and submissions for the first time. I remember an interview with a female Kung Fu (or some form of martial arts that wasn't Muay Thai) fighter who had decided to make the transition to boxing. She said something akin to "Everyone thought I'd wipe the floor with anyone they put in front of me. What I wound up looking like was a confused martial artist who had her kicks taken away."

Granted you could say the reverse is true as well. The offense from a fighter will be underwhelming if they are extensively trained in one technique or a few techniques and are suddenly placed in a sport where everyone can do what they do AND a lot of stuff they know nothing about.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

Alfred

Jason Quintana's picture

"a lot of kickboxers who take up boxing fail badly."

Well, I suspect it goes both ways. Put a good boxer in with a good kick boxer, enforce kick boxing rules and I bet the boxer gets his ass kicked. There is this Australian light heavyweight boxer who I really like named Paul Briggs, and I believe he was originally trained in Thai kickboxing and fought over there for a while. But he looks like he's built more as a boxer and is probably better suited to that sport.

- Jason

Jason D. Quintana is not associated with the Ayn Rand Institute -- neither as a writer nor as a speaker.

I'll try to catch it.

Wes's picture

The black-hatted cowboy? I don't usually watch the really light weights but he is a lot of fun.

There are UFC fights on Spike tomorrow, but none of them look really exciting, especially if you're looking for striking. Franca/Fisher looks like it could be good and Heath Herring's bout should end in a knockout.

Wes

Jason Quintana's picture

I thought the fight was a bit of a snoozer. It was a case where Hatton totally outclassed the other fighter, but didn't have the power to hurt or knock the other guy out, so he took the safe (and smart) way out in the later rounds. There is a fight I am looking forward to this weekend on HBO. A fight that will include the crazy Mexican Jorge Arce who always puts on a great show. Maybe boxing's best showman.

- Jason

Jason D. Quintana is not associated with the Ayn Rand Institute -- neither as a writer nor as a speaker.

What did you think of the

Wes's picture

What did you think of the Hatton fight? I only caught the last five rounds. It looked like he'd settled into a punch-and-clinch mode in order to coast to a win on points.(Guess he didn't want a Judah/Baldomir)

BOXING

alfred's picture

Love the boxing, man on man the hardest, take the kicking out and just use ur hands man then you know your in a fight, a lot of kickboxers who take up boxing fail badly.

I have a great deal of respect for MMA

Jason Quintana's picture

I think these guys are amazing. They have an incredible amount of guts and (the good ones) are outstanding tacticians. Grappling is not just a matter of brute strength. It is highly strategic and it is a difficult skill to develop. For some reason I just don't like watching it very much. I can understand all of the things that lead people to like MMA, and I am actually surprised that I've never been able to get into it.

- Jason

Jason D. Quintana is not associated with the Ayn Rand Institute -- neither as a writer nor as a speaker.

UFC/MMA

Landon Erp's picture

I'll have to check the guy Jason but on MMA/UFC I actually like it because of the grappling/submission element. I tend to not be too much into kicking in general so I like the controlled factor of boxing. And I like the fact that in boxing you really have to pick your spot, but I like all the interesting things that can go on within a good grappling exchange.

But back on that bastard child again. Pro-wrestling was developed because there a long periods of times in most wrestling matches where LITTERALLY NOTHING HAPPENS. Carnival owners understood that a fast paced exchange with a clear winner (or interestingly controversial finish) could draw a lot of money, this coupled with the fact that wrestlers would have to fight regularly every night lead to the phenomenon we call pro-wrestling today where there are moves designed to look entertaining but cause minimal actual damage and each "match" is treated like a story. I can understand why people don't like it... it's something you have to show up wanting to be fooled to enjoy (like Magic shows).

But I do think MMA is a good legitimate sport compromise. You have the excitement of complacated grappling exchanges with striking mixed in to always keep the action moving.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

MTV?

Wes's picture

I didn't know he did an MTV thing. He was the only UFC fighter I could think of that had pure Muay Thai experience.

Thank you for the links.

Punching only boring?... no if it includes...

Kendall J's picture

Knees and elbows!

I've seen some of the fighting that include grappling, and I have to say I find that pretty boring as well. There's something about watching guys roll around on the floor in a tight clench that is not appealing.

Respectfully,
Kendall Justiniano

Not a chance

Kendall J's picture

Wes: Kit Cope was touted as a world famous Muay Thai guy for his UFC fights. Is he really a known fighter?

Yeah, I saw his fight on the MTV show that aired it. This guy has only had one fight in Thailand, and it was a mid-level fight. He may have the potential to be a good fighter, but it's not because he's tested himself against any Thai. My wife trains in Muay Thai (she's an instructor). She knows the school that Cope originally trained at. Most of the American schools are fairly new and young.

There are few Europeans who can go up against Thai champions. The one I know best is Ramon Dekker. Probably the most well respected inside of Thailand. He had a mixed record against Thai champions. You can see some of his best moves on YouTube adn Google Video. He's got a wicked knock-out kick to the head.

http://www.diamonddekkers.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Respectfully,
Kendall Justiniano

Boxing had it's day, but....

Pete L's picture

Personally, I'm finding mixed martial arts and ultimate fighting to be more interesting. I believe it will overcome boxing in stature in the coming decade. It's interesting to have fighters come at each other from a variety of disciplines to see how thing stack up. A "punching only" format seems boring in comparison.

Left hook

Wes's picture

I think the left hook is one of the best weapons for an out-fighter. Klitchsko needs to pick it up. Pair it with his jab and watch out.

Sapp is such a let down. It is shocking how bad of a fighter he is with that physique.

Sapp's fame could be an indicator of possible opportunites. I'll bet there's a need for impressively built caucasian villans in Asia cinema. Maybe we should bulk up and give it a shot.

Bob Sapp!

Jason Quintana's picture

Yeah, I think you have DLH/Mayweather pretty much pegged. However, while I don't think Oscar has one punch knockout power, his left hook is quick enough and accurate enough to catch Floyd. And that would be enough to put Mayweather on "queer street" long enough for DLH to move in and TKO him with a flurry. Oscar has no chance at a decision.

Bob Sapp is one of the funniest things I've ever seen. A china chin giant. Gets hit and goes down every time. He also gets totally winded after about 20 seconds. Great entertainment though. The Japanese love him. I hear there are Bob Sapp billboards and commercials all over the place in Japan. The guy has made a fortune over there.

- Jason

Jason D. Quintana is not associated with the Ayn Rand Institute -- neither as a writer nor as a speaker.

Mayweather wins easy

Wes's picture

I don't think there's any chance Mayweather could lose. De la Hoya doesn't have the power to take him out with one punch and isn't going to have the chance to inflict cummulative punishment. And Floyd's conditioning is good and has great coaches so he's not going to get pointed either.

The only way I see De la Hoya getting it done is if Mayweather relaxes too much and tries too hard for a knockout. About the best he can hope for is to keep it close by working as an in-fighter.

I like all the combat sports, but K1 seems only slightly less limited than boxing when compared to UFC/Pride. ESPN just replayed all their K1 fights this weekend. Hoost v Sapp!

And you should give the UFC another shot. They've instituted rules to limit inaction on the ground.

Mayweather/K1

Jason Quintana's picture

Wes -- What do you think about the Mayweather/DLH fight in May? I would like for Oscar to win this one, but Floyd seems invincible right now, even as high as the 154 weight class, which this fight will take place at. Oscar is still fast and powerful at 33, and probably stronger then Floyd, but Mayweather has the combination of unbeatable blazing speed and some of the best defensive tactics in boxing history.

Kendall -- I have heard many people say the same thing. I am not familiar at all with Muay Thai, but it certainly sounds like the kind of thing that would appeal to me.

I did get hooked for a while on K1. Have any of you guys who like MMA ever seen that? Sort of like kick boxing with a different set of rules. Now that IS more of a spectacle then a real sport, but boy is it is spectacle. I've even gone as far as paying for pay per view for the big K1 events they have at the end of the year in Japan. K1 is very big in parts of Europe as well I think. Never cared much for UFC/Pride Fighting because of the wrestling element.

- Jason

("Always thought Oscar De La Renta was a bit too delicate for my taste... Wouldn't want him to prove it on me though." Yes, it would probably be wise to avoid trying to prove this hypothesis. Smiling Check out the highlights from his latest fight with Mayorga on YouTube. )

Jason D. Quintana is not associated with the Ayn Rand Institute -- neither as a writer nor as a speaker.

Not avid anymore

Wes's picture

I'm not an avid fan anymore. Too many decisions I didn't like (the Taylor-Wright draw stands out). But still catch all of Mayweather's fights. More into MMA now.

Kendall J,
Kit Cope was touted as a world famous Muay Thai guy for his UFC fights. Is he really a known fighter?

Hear Hear, Young Daniel

Fraser Stephen-Smith's picture

"That honor has to go to fencing, which is as athletically demanding as it is romantic. There's just something about two combatants coming blade to blade that stirs a chord in my heart that no other sport can."

That's what we like to hear. Having fenced a little in my past I endorse your support, if not your judgement.

Boxing is extraordinarily similar to fencing as a sport, and is superior to it as a spectacle. The world's best boxers are significantly stronger and fitter than the world's best fencers. I do not watch very much boxing, but I do enjoy it when I do.

Mycroft's Ghost

Ted Keer's picture

Jason, I got a call from Mike, he said you were going to tell his story?

As for boxing, I've always been a street brawler and a Mosh pit man myself. Loved Fight Club. Was told it's a white male thing (We are a 5% minority in my division). Always thought Oscar De La Renta was a bit too delicate for my taste... Wouldn't want him to prove it on me though.

Pacquiao

Jason Quintana's picture

Well Landon, there is one name I would recommend that anyone who likes this sport watch for and that is Manny Pacquiao. Easily the most exciting fighter in the world. He is a 130 pound version of Mike Tyson and his fights almost always move at 100 miles per hour of pure action, with him usually coming out on top with an obliterating knock out. Fantastic stuff.

- Jason

Jason D. Quintana is not associated with the Ayn Rand Institute -- neither as a writer nor as a speaker.

American style boxing can't hold a candle to...

Kendall J's picture

Muay Thai. Once you've seen a high-level bout, live in Bankok, you'll never go back.

http://img.photobucket.com/alb...

Respectfully,
Kendall Justiniano

Combat sports

Daniel Walden's picture

Yeah, I'm a fan as well. I like to watch good boxing when I can catch it, although it's not my favorite of all the combat sports. That honor has to go to fencing, which is as athletically demanding as it is romantic. There's just something about two combatants coming blade to blade that stirs a chord in my heart that no other sport can.

Then again, I might just be waxing romantic about fencing due to just having seen "Cyrano de Bergerac."

I'm a fan

Landon Erp's picture

But I think you kind of pointed out why I don't keep up with the sport as well as I should (couldn't name anyone on your list but De La Hoya). Saw a good fight on "recent classics" few weeks ago between a champ who didn't make weight to keep the belt even if he won the fight and a smaller guy who threw a lot of rabbit punches.

I tend to be into combat sports in general though. Kind of suprised they don't have more sway with Objectivists in general though, it's individualized and it takes just as much thought as it does physical strength and training. But I dig boxing, MMA, Freestyle wrestling, occaisionally greco-roman wrestling, and Sumo. I'm also a fan of the bastard stepchild of combat sports and carnivals "pro-wrestling" but that in and of itself is another post entirely.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

Hatton

Jason Quintana's picture

Exciting fighter to watch. Here in the U.S. he has a reputation as a ducker, who won't step up and fight the top fighters at 140 and 147. That might be a bit unfair. He's fighting in a few weeks on HBO. Definitely looking forward to it.

- Jason

Jason D. Quintana is not associated with the Ayn Rand Institute -- neither as a writer nor as a speaker.

I would add

Kenny's picture

Ricky Hatton to Jason's list.

Haha

Jason Quintana's picture

Well I have never heard any connection between gayness and boxing before, but that is a pretty good joke!

- Jason

Jason D. Quintana is not associated with the Ayn Rand Institute -- neither as a writer nor as a speaker.

You know, they say that gay men invented boxing...

Daniel Walden's picture

After all, it's two sweaty, shirtless guys in silk shorts fighting over a belt and a purse Smiling

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