ha gosh.... this is so amusing.

If my dining companions act like boors merely because said person is a waiter, however, they shan't dine with me again, as I don't sup with boors. That's not socialism -- it's called manners.

Couldn't agree more.

And some of my most intimate friends and exquisite desserts have been waiters. An ex tells me I always had a weakness for cummerbunds.

...don't expect to be taken seriously when all you can muster is ridiculous trash talk.

Castro Cohort...these are getting funnier. Why don't you do some homework (and perhaps read a bit of Rand) before posting further?

As for my interaction with waiters, I likely do not know them by first name, as I dine all over the world. I do treat (and tip) them according to the level of respect and gratitude they earn -- which varies. If my dining companions act like boors merely because said person is a waiter, however, they shan't dine with me again, as I don't sup with boors. That's not socialism -- it's called manners.

Jennifer

-- Food Philosophy. Sensuality. Sass.

I'm having deja vu with this thread.

In any event, Elijah, you are being a wanker. Objectivism upholds the aristocracy of merit, not a caste system. It respects a waiter who does his job to the best of his ability just as it respects the restaurant owner, upholding the freedom that enables a waiter to become an owner if he has and uses the ability. It says we must judge everyone individually, on merit.

For what it's worth, the handful of folk I know with huge wallets and impeccable social deportment are shallow second-handers and total shits. Doesn't go with the territory, of course—it just so happens that there are more Lillians than Hanks around at that level right now. Most of them in bed with the government.

Linz

point is quite simple.

People who are not 'owners' of Hotels but work there, in demeaning jobs (where all the Guests look right through them and five minutes later cannot remember what they look like), simply do not 'matter' in the scheme of things.

It really is as simple as that.

If you own a Hotel, you need a few maids to make the place run efficiently, but if you sack a maid you have 30 people lining up to replace them and virtually all of them of a 'non White' skin colour....(so that makes you a racist).

There, I said it. I looked at reality and verbalised it.

You and your 'Castro Cohorts' seem appalled at this attitude....and are more than happy to listen to irrelevant, unsubstantiated nonsense from disgruntled ex-employees....rather than honouring a true Capitalist.

I bet when you go to a restaurant you are on first name terms with the Waiter...(to show you are not a snob, but egalitarian and a friend to all)...whilst blissfully unaware the Waiter is...ummmmmm...a servant.

This is typical of so many people who turn up on Objectivist websites and organisations...they are really 'Conservatives', with a 'jolly hockeysticks' attitude to other people as the socialism of their upbringing runs very, very deep.

I prefer to judge people by the size of their wallets, and their achievements in life, and their deportment in social situations.

Most of us here have shocked people by using such terms -- what's your point?

You keep dancing around the issues in an attempt at sensationalism ("Ooh! These people here are scared of capitalism!") rather than addressing them, and if that is you "not being bothered" then don't expect to be taken seriously.

Jennifer

-- Food Philosophy. Sensuality. Sass.

I use terms like "elite", "working class", "servants" etc and shock people who profess to be Capitalists and rational thinkers...am reminded of Ayn Rand appearing on the Donaghue show in 1980.

She seemed to shock the audience when she said some fairly basic, common sense things...(about altruism, capitalism, freedom, wasting time treating retarded children as 'normal' when clearly they are not etc)....because she was not buying into the politically correct view of the World.

She followed it up with (words to the effect) that she could not be bothered wasting time with people who disagree with her.

Elijah, you quote lots of "Socialist maxims" here, and seem to revel in throwing around those "red" words, which is interesting, as none of them apply to what I, for one, have argued here.

To wit:

I will let people decide for themselves whether some of the Socialist maxims have sympathy here, such as...

No. Elitism for its own sake, with nothing to back it up, is an empty argument. Your place of superiority seems to stem merely from not being part of the working class; last time I checked that was called monarchism.

Says who? If that were the case, I'd be denouncing myself as evil -- and I would remember posting something like that.

No. We should not celebrate bad management practices as good, nor elevate a woman of her ridiculousness to the level of a queen.

4. There is something 'dirty' about making money and spending it on luxury.

Really? I'll mull that over as I'm away at the spa this weekend. Perhaps I'll discuss it with my aesthetician and see what she thinks.

Jennifer

-- Food Philosophy. Sensuality. Sass.

You are honest, I don't deny that. You haven't hid your views on anything.

But I'm sorry, but I can't hold my tongue when I see someone spouting things like you do on an Objectivist board. You're free, just like good Leona, to hold any view and opinion you want. I just don't want your views associated with Objectivism.

You want to talk about small: I certainly don't believe Ayn Rand would approve of someone LORDING their desire to be a white ruling elitist over others. That's really the most offensive part.

This is the characteristic of an Atlas Shrugged villian, not an Atlas Shrugged hero.

p.s. "I also have a line in my profile about people who cannot debate and engage in personal abuse and tantrums
(curiously enough you did not quote that) "

Yet you celebrate Leona Helmsly's reputation for abuse?

I didn't quote it, because you've already violated the need to treat your view with respect. You can hide behind your veneer, but you could say I have an "instinctive" hatred of self-proclaimed elites, if I believed in such an instinct. You've come here with a superiour attitude and "I can't imagine why others don't see things like me" approach. I don't trust it. You get what you give.

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I also have a line in my profile about people who cannot debate and engage in personal abuse and tantrums

(curiously enough you did not quote that)

I am entitled to my opinions and more than happy to debate any point to back up any position, but it should be noted that I do not try and hide my views on any issue.

If you are going to draw the dots between my employing two Pacific Islanders as domestic servants and come up with that as being racist...well...gosh...you are just being silly.

You should go the whole hog because the chap who mows the lawns is from Thailand, so clearly I am exploiting Asians, too!

Elijah, I don't think I'm being small, just calling a spade a spade. Your bio is indicative of your style. You put on this nice guy gee gosh act yet write things like this:

"Cannot help scratching my head at these pro Capitalism, pro Libertarian Freedom loving types who, upon investigation, went to State schools where they were taught to do as they are told like good little sheep...went to left wing Universities where they learnt how to be 'employees' (someone else's lackey) ...and have "jobs" and "careers" rather than standing on their own two feet and being Self Employed Men of Action in the uncompromising pursuit of profits and happiness.
But, well, there we are."

So you came here with ad hominem arguments and insults to begin with.

You set up strawmen arguments by making claims the people criticizing you on this thread are saying "there's something dirty about making money and spending it on luxury." Who said that? Who claimed that requiring high standards is evidence of an evil employer, when the real objection was against her attitude?

We've had a debate here before about "elitism," but Objectivism makes a distinction between an elite of ability and an elite based on skin color or birth. You've not made that distinction in your posts, yet you've made racist comments and stated your preference for a white ruling elite. You're trying to sell a package deal of an Objectivist capitalism with aristocracy based on skin and the mere possession of money, regardless how it's created and used.

"I have an instinctive hatred of poor people, for example...(yes, an actual hatred)."

"I regard it as a badge of honour to have grown up in an affluent, 100% White Anglo Saxon environment, attended a private school and never knew (or even met) Maori or Polynesian people until my late teens."

I hope to "god" that this isn't an example of Kiwi humor. There is nothing small about calling a spade a spade.

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I do get surprised when people chop and change their opinions to suit the situation.

It is a classic case of 'Tony Blair-ism' with a "the past is nothing to do with us, we are NewCapitalism"

I will let people decide for themselves whether some of the Socialist maxims have sympathy here, such as...

1. Elitism is wrong...(let's all be morons together)

2. Requiring high standards of employees is evidence of an evil Employer.

3. Leona Helmsley was rich and not 'warm and fluffy', so she is a bitch and we must hate her.

4. There is something 'dirty' about making money and spending it on luxury.

As for engaging in trite personal abuse, Joe...well, gosh, you are bigger than that

Gosh, you seem "genuinely astounded" by a lot of things. But I don't think anyone here's really given you any indication that they're red by a long shot.
I do think you've given off enough to make the claim that you're simply a racist elitist, would you agree?

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am very proud to say I am 'Elitist'

What always intrigues me is the 'Closet' left.

You can be a Capitalist...put your own money into a company (like a Hotel) and that is all good and well...until you step out of line by daring to run it the way you want to run it, or telling some people to pull their socks up or whatever.

Then the screams of outrage from the Libertarian/Objectivist/Capitalist Left is deafening!

The hard done by employees never chipped in $1 to build her Hotels, never chipped in to pay the running costs, never chipped in to pay the Mortgage or anything else (and goodness knows how much they stole from the kitchens and elsewhere)...yet are to be applauded as "Salt of the Earth" hardworking...(sorry have to stop here to vomit)

Back now ...I am genuinely astounded more on here are not taking my attitude that if they did not like it they should have buggered off!

I guess what I am trying to say to (so called) Capitalists and Objectivists is "You can't have it both ways"

a shame to see "the Red Flag [is] flying here"

That may be the funniest thing I've read all year. Thanks for the belly laugh.

Your statements so far make you seem, quite frankly, like an elitist who revels in elitism for its own sake. To me, that has more shades of red than calling a spade a spade -- or in this case, a bitch a bitch.

Jennifer

-- Food Philosophy. Sensuality. Sass.

To treat one's employees like people, whether one considers them equal or not. Tell me rich people are better and I'll point to Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears, and the corporate welfare recipients.

For one's own self-interest, at least: our society runs on a divison of labor. Let's see Leona-like people try to run a hotel single handedly.

If one has such contempt for servants and the like on principle, why employ them? Why be an enabler? Clean your own goddamn toilets.

Being that this is an Objectivst board, I sincerely hope this behavior is not being justified in the name of Ayn Rand.
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just for the "little people"... she used to mercilessly whip the agency account director (and he was someone she liked).

"Hardly people possessing dignity or upward mobility, who are quick to winge at the least little thing as they never seem to realise that if you act like a servant you get treated like one."

I don't think anyone doubts the existence of such people, I can testify to their existence, having worked with them, and even heard justifications for bad work behavior from employers ranging from "they're kids" to "they're only making minumum wage, cut some slack." But you have a tendency to make short, sweeping posts that don't offer a full perspective, and many posters don't know you here, so I think the knee jerks are less "red" and more out of the nature of your sweeping claims. We don't know your full context!

Keep in mind, as well, that many of us are fans of ATLAS SHRUGGED, which featured characters who were in lower positions but should not have been, but forced there through the government's machinations, so the knee jerks may be a benevolent reaction to the potential and ideal of the person working their way up, or unjustly forced down (or on strike!).

As for Leona's treatment of workers, I'd rather think that if they were that "worthless," they should have simply been fired, and replaced with people who didn't need to be treated that way. But easier said than done in this lawsuit ridden day and age.
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a shame to see "the Red Flag [is] flying here"

I am going to get shot for saying this from our Socialist members of the "People's Republic Of Solo Passion"...but the people who complained about Leona's behaviour were...ummmmm....waiters, doormen, cleaners, maids (servants of all description).

Hardly people possessing dignity or upward mobility, who are quick to winge at the least little thing as they never seem to realise that if you act like a servant you get treated like one

..."...I don't see how berating others is going to encourage them to achieve such standards. That's just bad management -- and the result of an inferiority complex."

Right on the money, honey.

Leadership is about how you behave and the example you set, not the position you hold. The former will cause people to work hard for you, the latter will simply make them obey.

He was the US Attorney General who prosecuted Helmsley over tax evasion. Guiliani is a true looter, the Ellsworth Toohey of the Presidential campaign.

One other point...a Company should exist solely for the benefit of the customers and shareholders, not the staff.

Not sure if you are making an incidental point here, as I never said otherwise. I'm speaking of good management and retaining good staff -- that is to the benefit of both the customer and the shareholder. Happy employees make for a stronger company and better customer service.

Jennifer

-- Food Philosophy. Sensuality. Sass.

Ha...yes, gosh, perhaps I got slightly carried away after my ghastly supermarket experience this morning.

I have had two cups of tea and 4 cigarettes (yes I have started again, so sue me in the World Court) and calmed down somewhat ...(with a promise to myself to not meet "the other half" again for at least another 50 years)

I do, however, feel the stories about her were exaggerated and if she had a 'people problem' there we are.

One other point...a Company should exist solely for the benefit of the customers and shareholders, not the staff.

Elijah, New York hotel workers are some of the very best in the business, so I'm not understanding you at all. The woman was, quite simply, a bitch -- that does not necessitate high standards; nor does the latter necessitate the former. Incidentally, the person I know who worked for her was in upper management, and her stories were no better than the ones Andre mentioned.

Her "useless" staff keeps one of the finest hotels in NY running, and you might consider that they do it out of pride for their work -- not just because she said so. If they were completely useless, they wouldn't bother at all.

My standards are nearly impossible to meet, too, but I don't see how berating others is going to encourage them to achieve such standards. That's just bad management -- and the result of an inferiority complex.

Jennifer

-- Food Philosophy. Sensuality. Sass.

am just home from a very, very unpleasant experience.

I was out in New Lynn, investigating a business matter and on the way home Damien, my Butler who was driving, suggested we stop at Pak N Save in Mt Albert to purchase some groceries.

Gosh...what a dreadful experience!

Being in a supermarket, entirely devoid of anything 'normal' people would want to purchase, and the pushing and shoving from ghastly working class people fighting each other for mutton and cabbage and tins of baked beans....gosh..I would not wish that on anyone!

I imagine if I had legions of employees from the lower classes there would very quickly be a "clash of values" between my high standards, and those of these working class pigs!

Leona Helmsley was someone who had the highest standards and her staff were basically useless...(and would fit in well in Mt Albert)...hence her behaviour.

Far from the "Boss From Hell" ....she merely expressed a conventional view, and those were standards her staff could not easily meet.

Jennifer -- You make many good points. I had a lot of contact with Leona's various fancy hotels many years back. Prior to this, I admired the hell out of her "the only castle where the queen stands guard" t'v' commercials and similar-type print ads. I hugely bought into this.

But whenever I mentioned this to the doormen and maids, not once did I get a positive reply back. Even when I defended her as a good capitalist, and said that maybe she just had very high standards for her luxury hotels, they all disputed me -- some angrily. Each insisted she was a miserable witch to work for, and all evidently had a slew of outlandish stories about how she treated her easily-fired employees.

Jennifer:
"It is difficult, if not impossible, to build a solid company by treating one's employees like shit, no matter how "Objectivist" that might appear to be on the surface."

Not even on the surface.

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Heh...Leona was the nickname my sister gave me when I was a teenager (I took it as an insult then -- not sure how I feel about it now). I never took much time to learn about her, aside from things I heard from friends in the industry, but perhaps I'll take a second look.

Having said that, one commands -- not demands -- respect. It is difficult, if not impossible, to build a solid company by treating one's employees like shit, no matter how "Objectivist" that might appear to be on the surface. Note that none of Rand's characters did so with regard to the employees they valued; those relationships were based on mutual respect. Those who subscribe to any other notion won't keep good employees for long.

Jennifer

-- Food Philosophy. Sensuality. Sass.

"Harry Helmsley was initially charged as well; however, he was found to be both physically and mentally unfit to stand trial, having begun to appear enfeebled shortly after the beginning of his relationship with Leona Helmsley years before." (emphasis mine)

I had never heard of her before . Sounds like she was one tough lady though!

I worked on the Helmsley Hotel account in Miami, but never had the privilege to meet her due to the fact she was doing time for evading government theft.

I remember the suit quoting her, “Only the little people pay taxes.”