As I am already well aware, Lincoln was NOT opposed to slavery, just the EXPANSION of it( which, the more I think about it, doesn't sound like it makes a lot of sense, does it?). As for increases in government spending, and federal income taxes, I believe that was initially something Andrew Jackson first paved the way for- I didn't say he STARTED it, but he paved the way for it to happen...actually wait...I believe that actually might've been JAMES MADISON- I believe he did something to that effect due to the War of 1812- I THINK I read something about it on Wikipedia.

One thing I must say about Lincoln- he was a president where, IMO, you sorta had to be there at the time to really understand why he did whatever it was he did. I'm not BACKING him on it by any stretch of the imagination, but after reading all that I have about the era, and the whole slavery issue, on Wikipedia, it was a FAR more hot-button issue at the time than I'd ever believe, and truth be told..something that TODAY I really can't understand well. So I'm not gonna to say yay or nay on this one...I will confess I have more studying up on him to do.

No, I don't think you want a president like Ford who fumbles his words as badly as he did- they were totally uninspired, and just couldn't give any hope to the country. There's slick-talking and sleazy, and well-communicated and well-meaning. Clinton is easily the first example, Reagan is obviously the latter- Ford was none of the above, and was just a sad, pathetic excuse for a "substitute" president.

NIXON started the whole HMO thing? I think you forget about the man who planned to start the whole THING with government health care...I of course speak of LYNDON BAINES JOHNSON!!!!!!!! As for EPA, OSHA, and double-digit inflation, that was ever-viligant mentality of the '60s creeping into the '70s. Sadly, it was under Nixon. I don't praise the man by any stretch, but I have a really hard time hating him. Might I add- years later, he admitted to President Reagan how badly he'd screwed up, and that he trusted in Reagan to do his best to fix the damage he'd done.

And how do I think Kennedy bombed the Cuban Missile Crisis? I believe he had the chance to threaten some serious military action over it...and wussed out. Not like they would've taken him seriously anyway- Bay of Pigs, anyone?

Lincoln ended any notion that being a part of the US was voluntary. He cynically manipulated the slavery issue to keep England out of the war, feigning to free slaves in territory the US didn't control, still enforcing slavery in border states and counties invaded by the US, and introducing a new form of slavery in the form of the federal draft. He brought the first federal income, excise, etc. taxes, suspension of gold backing, and unmatched (to that time) increases in tariffs, government spending and inflation. He violated habeas corpus, arrested people and shut down newspapers that opposed him. Many of the measures he began did end after wartime, but he blazed the trail for more permanent use of them later. Lincoln helped ensure that government of the people, by the people, and for the people would perish from the earth.

On Nixon, I'm following Rand's cue and quoting myself: "Nixon brought us the DEA, HMOs, the EPA, OSHA, fiat currency, double-digit inflation, gasoline and other price controls, and wage controls. Watergate is a side issue; without it, Nixon would still be one of the worst presidents."

Carter did keep the gasoline price controls and their ensuing shortages til near the end of his presidency. The FAA and other regulation means the airlines are still interfered with, but measures such as price controls ended with the CAB. Don't confuse selective service registration with an actual draft, which has not been done since '73.

Ford- His words? I'll prefer someone who stumbles over words (and feet). Slick-talking politicians seem to have a talent for picking our pockets more effectively.

Bay of Pigs was bungled, but I'm curious what you mean about the Cuban missile crisis. How do you see it 'crashed and burned' and better to have handled it?

Lincoln I actually think was one of the few good presidents this country has ever had- I know some of the things he did weren't good, but I think to appreciate most of what he did, you had to see what he was up against at the time, and have an understanding OF what it was like at that time.

Here's the thing with Nixon- inasmuch as I want to hate him...I just can't. Corrupt he indeed was, but he was a DAMN good communicator regarding whatever he was doing. Lemme compare him to a more contemporary president to explain:

Nixon and Clinton are both considered shady, but smooth. In truth, Clinton definitely WASN'T- the media just PORTRAYED him that way, as they were having a "Democrat erection" with him being the first Democrat in about 50 years to make it to a 2nd term. Nixon didn't get that lucky- he was just that damn good in his delivery, and selling his agenda...regardless of whether or not I LIKED his agenda.

As for Carter, dude- oil regulations got WORSE under Carter- people could only buy gas on certain days of the week, and it skyrocketed in price to higher than what it is now( at least a the moment), and I find it funny that ever since that airline "deregulation" act, all the airlines keep filing for bankruptcy...I've been told that this "deregulation" was anything BUT. Pardoning draft dodgers? Hahaha- Carter RE-INSTATED the draft! And to do THAT at that point in history, either you gotta be riding HIGH on approval ratings, or you gotta be one major dumb fuck- I believe Carter was EASILY the latter. And yes, I realize you already mentioned that he re-instated the draft, but he was trying to have it both ways.

Ford was a clumsy-ass second hander who's words were far from inspiring, AND his ultimate gaffe was LOSING TO JIMMY CARTER IN THE '76 DEBATE.

In MODERN day, Jackson would be considered a mixed-bag, I guess...but for his time, no- just BAD.

JFK was nothing more than the media and teeny boppers getting horny over this young hunk of a president. He crashed and burned the Cuban Missile Crisis, and was about to implement all the stupid things that LBJ did...but I guess LBJ just wanted credit for it, and had him assassinated. Looking back, LBJ did him a favor, and took THAT "bullet" for him.

I agree GWB won't contend with FDR, LBJ, Wilson or a few others for worst place from an Objectivist judgment, but he's pretty bad. W's administration has seen a few positives such as tax reductions and (with qualification) the Afghanistan involvement toppling the Taliban. However, overall it is disastrous and so far he's easily the worst president in my lifetime excepting Nixon.
- vetoed nothing - increased spending bills or whatever - except funding for stem cell research, one thing he opposed but for the wrong reasons
- gives lip service to free trade while increasing trade barriers such as tariffs on lumber, steel, textiles, etc.
- ignored Iran and North Korea in their terrorist and nuclear weapon endeavors while squandering worldwide goodwill, half a trillion dollars and 3000 lives invading and occupying the wrong country
- 'No Child Left Behind' increases spending and federal meddling in education
- medicare prescription drug act as a massive increase in federal healthcare spending
- violations of civil liberties such as warrantless wiretaps of citizens, holding prisoners without concern for habeas corpus or a hint of due process, 'patriot' act
- increased federal spending by more than any administration since LBJ. tax cuts are rather meaningless in face of this, as every dollar spent by the government ultimately means a dollar taken from us by force in form of taxes or inflation (federal debt is just deferred taxes or inflation).

And for the historical ones, Hoover belongs on the list among the worst:
- expanded and significantly increased federal spending on national parks, civil service, public works such as dam and road building
- other 'not quite the New Deal yet' measures such as farm subsidies and federal home loans
- actually pushed for even more socialist measures that congress didn't pass, such as social-security-ish pensions and a federal dept of education
- Smoot-Hawley tariff. utterly insane, choking off international trade in a recession
- one of the largest tax increases in US history

Most of your definitive 'bad' list I don't contest. You missed Lincoln and Nixon who are definitely worse than some mixed-bag ones like Jackson and Kennedy. The only ones I want to explicitly defend are the more modern mixed-bag ones who are by no means great presidents but certainly don't belong on the 'worst' list.

The Carter administration did have some substantial negatives such as reinstituting selective service registration, fumbling around the Iran hostage situation, and the formation of the Dept of Education. However, it had some significant good points too, especially concerning deregulation:
- end of the CAB (civil aeronautics board) regulating and controlling prices of air travel
- end of ICC (interstate commerce commission) regulating and controlling prices of interstate trucking
- end of Nixon-era shortage-inducing gasoline price controls
- pardoned Vietnam draft dodgers

Ford I consider overall the least-bad president in my lifetime. He pardoned Nixon and did a couple more minor bad things such as making bad loans to New York City. However:
- WIN (whip inflation now) - an overblown gimmick, but it did involve moves such as income tax rebates and price inflation was reduced from Nixon's obscene levels
- decriminalization of gold ownership, ending this FDR-era restriction on freedom
- partial pardon of draft dodgers. this was half-baked compared to the pardon Carter later gave, but was a step in the right direction
- ended selective service registration. curses to Carter for reinstituting it and Reagan for hypocritically keeping it despite his campaign promises
- vetoed about 2/3 of the bills that hit his desk. great compared to Reagan or other supposedly veto-heavy presidents, let alone 'only veto stem cell research' W. since almost all bills Congress passes are bad, sometimes I think the best president we could hope for is one who just vetoes everything!

I would say Ireland would pull out of the single currency first when it crumbles irreparably. Irish citizens already having returned to sterling or using US dollars.

Below copied from that linkpage
Justice commissioner??
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/14/nimm114....

EU told to open door to 20m migrant workers

By Philip Johnston, Home Affairs Editor
Last Updated: 2:27am BST 17/09/2007

A huge increase in economic migration into the EU is being proposed by the European Commission.

It wants to relax controls and open the borders to an extra 20 million workers from Asia and Africa over the next two decades.
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That would more than double the present non-EU resident population now living in the 27 member states. It now stands at about 18 million out of a total of around 490 million.

The Commission is drawing up a new ''blue card'' scheme - modelled on the American ''green card'' work permit - allowing qualified migrants the right to live, work and travel in the EU.

The plan marks a renewed push to convince member states to adopt a single fast-track immigration policy.

Despite greater harmonisation in recent years, EU countries still operate their own programmes and quotas.

Britain is not signed up to common EU borders, but would still be affected if the plans went ahead.

Under the commission's proposals, once overseas migrants had been in an EU state for five consecutive years they would be free to travel where they wished.

The Tories said the British ''opt in'' to EU asylum and immigration plans would be rendered pointless by such a policy.

"Under these proposals anyone who has lived for five years anywhere in the EU would be allowed to stay permanently,'' said David Davis, the shadow home secretary.

He added: "Since this would be in addition to already large-scale immigration, the stress placed on housing, public services and community relations in the UK would be enormous.

"It is vital that the UK Government retains complete control over who is allowed to come to the UK.

"It should not allow the EU to create loopholes that would make a mockery of a sensible, well-balanced immigration system."

The new EU policy was outlined by Franco Frattini, the EU justice commissioner, at a conference of immigration ministers in Portugal yesterday.

He said Europe needed labour, both skilled and unskilled, because of a fall in the population of working age. America was also attracting more qualified workers than were coming to the EU, Mr Frattini added.

He said that while illegal immigration had to be curtailed, skilled migrants should be ''actively encouraged''.

"We have to look at immigration as an enrichment and as an inescapable phenomenon of today's world, not as a threat.

"We should take more account of what statistics tell us: 85 per cent of unskilled labour goes to the EU and only five per cent to the USA, whereas 55 per cent of skilled labour goes to the USA and only five per cent to the EU. We have to reverse these figures with a new vision."

Mr Frattini said that despite recent EU expansion pushing the bloc's total population to 490 million, the working population was declining.

By 2050, a third of residents in the 27 countries would be aged over 65.

He said countries with rapid recent economic growth, such as Ireland and Spain, had benefited from the inflow of skilled workers from elsewhere in the EU and beyond.

"All skill levels are required," Mr Frattini said. "The challenge is to attract the workers needed to fill specific gaps."

He said immigration was still a far too negatively loaded term in Europe, and that had to change.

EU members states all operate different skilled immigration programmes.

Britain is moving to a points-based work permit system from next year aimed at attracting more skilled workers and removing settlement rights from unskilled migrants.

Germany requires a job offer with a minimum salary of 85,000 euros (£58,000) a year for migrants who are hoping to get a work permit.

With growing signs that the world economy may be about to go into reverse after years of growth, the commission's proposals could run into stiff opposition from member states worried about high unemployment.

There are also anti-migrant tensions in parts of Europe that would be stoked by an open door approach.

However, Jose Socrates, the prime minister of Portugal, which currently holds the EU presidency, urged support for the proposal.

He said it was crucial to meet labour shortages and curb illegal immigration and people trafficking.

think the President has a great legacy.
His top 20 are as follows...

1. He cut taxes for rich people!
2. His 'No Child Left Behind' has shown up the socialist teacher unions for being incompetent.
3. He saved the World from the horrific nightmare of 'President Gore'.
4. He rallied the World against terrorism.
5. He saved the World from...ummmmm.....(forgive me I am pissing myself laughing) ..."President Kerry"
6. He is a personable, congenial sort of chap.
7. He saved the World from President Gore.
8. He did not turn the Whitehouse into some kind of brothel.
9. He went to a Private School.
10. He saved the World from President Gore.
11. He went to Yale.
12. He increased depletion allowances for Oil Companies
13. He saved the World from President Gore.
14. He withdrew America from the Kyoto Protocol nonsense.
15. He reduced funding to the United Nations Population Fund.
16. He saved the World from President Gore.
17. He favours drilling for oil in Alaska.
18. He has taken a strong line with the 'Axis of Evil' nations.
19. He saved the World from President Gore.
20. He has ignored the communist NAACP organisation.

(Did I mention he has saved the World from President Gore?)

Is there a concerted campaign of Bush-bashing by the Hsiekovians? The answer to me is now obvious. They are, effectively, Fifth Columnists.

Linz

if ONE country makes it out "alive" from the EU, which one do you think it will be?

Linz...while I may not be a huge Bush fan myself, I ask the same question all the time.

Reagan knew communism wouldn't economically keep up the pace in the arms race. Bush isn't stupid either.

The easiest job would be English Chancellor of the Exchequer, you couldn't help but succeed against the policies in Europe.

I totally didn't read over that properly before I posted.. Obviously my brain is mush today..

Either way, I disagree. Will write more later if I get the time... 

nt

Yes...which is why the stock market crashed a year BEFORE Hoover signed that, right?

And regarding the comment on how we're seeing right in front of us about how Bush is handling it- y'know, people looking back now praise Ronald Reagan for defeating the Soviet Union. Now, when he left office in 1989, did you know the Berlin Wall was gonna fall THAT year? No- you didn't.

But years later, the Great Communicator's achievements are well remembered, and he's looked back on very positively.

we won't know if Bush's strategies worked for a long time.

But the fact is- present day ISN'T history yet, so we don't know yet just the impact that today will have on the future.

If it's that hard to tell if it will be efficacious, then it's impossible to tell whether any actions are the correct ones or not. I think that's what you're saying, that we are blind? We are not blind. Islam and it's Jihad can be fully observed and understood. The question is, how will trying to rebuild Iraq weaken Islam and its Jihad? I'm really not sure.

Michael J. Hurd?

Is he a Hsiekovian?

Is there a concerted Bush-bashing campaign going on by the disgrace-to-Objectivism treasonists?

Herbert Hoover?!?! a bad President?? wtf?

Where did that Socialist idea come from?

Hoover was one of the great ones.
He had a very distinguished career, was very highly regarded, and sensibly let a free market take its course rather than take the low road of welfarism.

The only silly thing Hoover ever did was not veto the idiotic Smoot-Hawlet Act when he was encouraged to do so in May 1930.

Dr Hurd?