When it comes to comics, I am like a little child begging for candy. I watch and read almost anything that cand reflect comics. I have read about Ditko, and I think that he should be named king or something

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Marcus, I am no stranger to watching copyrighted material on YouTube. It is wrong though, and I admit this. I try to avoid it, really... Anyway, that movie is copyrighted, and rightfully so. Have some respect, please.

By the way YouTube removed them already. Good.

Here are the contents of the "Avenging World" collection.

* the original 32pg 'Avenging World' comic. First off are descriptions of the various people messing up the world: the mystic, the middle roader, the enlightend, the humanitarian, the pragmatic businessman, etc. Finally the neutralist. Part 2 gets into compromise. There is a great one page artwork on what the objectivist world would be like. We also get into the collective good fallacy and more. Finally, the short story 'The Deadly Alien'.

* we get several short stories such as the "The Screamer" (closest to a 'superhero' in this collection), "Premise to Consequence" (short sf story), the "H Series" (a costumed hero story), "the captive spark", "My Brother", "Liberty or Death with Liberty Agent" (better known as "Libage vs Chain), the "J Series". (ok, you might consider the "H Series" and Libage 'superheroes' too).

* the long "Laszlo's Hammer" story, which looks at creation and destruction.

* the long "Safest Place" story, originally published as a color comic by Dark Horse.

* several articles by Ditko. These focus on issues such as "Who Owns Original [comic] Art?", the creation process, who created Spiderman, the issue of stolen art, creator's rights, and more, including the classic "Violence: the Phoney Issue" work. Some of these are pretty long, running several pages.

* several short pieces (1-2 pages) by Ditko, from his 'Tsk Tsk' series, new 'Avenging World' pieces and more. These touch on a variety of issues, several on comics/creators, others on more social/philisopical matters.

As noted, Synder no longer has a website. Drop him an email at RScomics @ aol.com. Here are some of the collections he's done with Ditko. Not sure what is still available.

"The Ditko Collection" their first collection. Mostly superheroes. There is the Shag (4 stories), a character based on The Creeper, but which Ditko owns (supposedly Ditko recycled stories intended for the Creeper series he was doing at DC), reprints of Killjoy (done for Charlton, but which Ditko now owns), the second Void story, as well as new characters The Corrector and Recage. I think this one is out of print. (we never see more stories with The Corrector of Recage. Recage seems a kinda revamp of Libage, and the themes in The Corrector we'll see in other characters of his)

"Static". Believe the full story is collected into one volume. A man is testing a new suit, and somehow gains powers (which is only possible when he is wearing the suit). He must contend with forces wanting the suit for their own purposes, and his fiance (the daugther of the scientist who created the suit, who he works for) who fears the suit is changing him. Too much talking heads killed this series in the comics (philosophic discussions between the 3 main characters), but Ditko was able to finish it with Snyder. There is an article Ditko wrote. He intended Static to be an on-going character, but after the cancellation, decided how to work out the conflict around the suit and rapped up the story.

"Mocker". A DA convicted of a crime is parolled and is back. While trying to clear his name, he gains powers. Can he prove to his ex-fiance and the cop that busted him (and the rest of the world) his innocence? Another aborted series that was finished with Snyder. One wonders if he shortened the story from what was originally intended, as he was forced to do with Static. Are we seeing how the Shade storyline might have been concluded in these two, considering some of the overlapping themes?

"Public Service Package- a Bold look at the comics industry." Done in his more cartoonish/caricaturist style. Looks at the comics industry, but could apply to any creative activity.

The Ditko Packages

#1 160 Page package. Heroes and stories, including the third Void story. Last is a long story (no superheroes, more in the line of the above 'safest place'), "The Germ"

#2 80 Page package. The Missing Man package. Reprints of previous stories of this weird hero, plus new ones.

#3 160 Page package. All reprints of Charlton short stories from their 'horror'/mystery comics.

#4 176 Page Hero package. All heroes. Fourth Void story. The Masker, Stricker, NEW Killjoy story, the return of Mr Quiver, the Whisperer, the second 'If then' story, and the NEWEST Mr. A. story.

#5 32 page Tsk Tsk package. New and reprints of short 1-2 page 'tsk tsk' items on social issues, rights, comics, and more.

Enjoy!

First off Robin Snyder's Ditko site which had an order form and descriptions of "packages" aparantly lapsed a few years ago. Now it's a website advertising a plastic surgery clinic.

But my fiancee e-mailed him and he got back to her pretty promptly.

Avenging world was pretty good though. It's usually a globe with a face on it describing political and philosophical problems. I remember one installment where the whole idea was based around a character who always called for compromise who wound up rewarding evil men and pulling good men into his control for the purpose of victimizing them, but less so than the actual evil person would do so.

Good stuff, I still like Mr. A though.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

Is in both the comic and the movie, and yes, while Moore (and essentially V) are both anarchists, thankfully something 'better' seems to creep through the comic and even more so in the movie, IMO.

I myself am an anarchist only until I've had my second cup of coffee. (just kidding - though I am grouchier to be sure...)

...could you tell us something of the contents of the comic "Avenging World"?

Also do you have link to a website for this Synder?

A point of clarification.

There are 2 works by Ditko known as "The Avenging World".

The first is a 36 page black and white comic book published in 1973.

The second is a 200+ page, square bound book published by Robin Snyder, which is what I was refering to. This newer work reprints the entire Avenging World comic, along with several stories and articles by Ditko over the past 30+ years, as well as "Lazlo's Hammer" and the complete "Safest Place" comic.

While you might find the first on eBay, you are probably better off getting the second from Snyder.

Hopefully Snyder still has copies of other collections like "The Mocker" (a wrongfully convicted DA comes back to try to clear his name, using newly obtained superpowers. Can he somehow clear his name and win back the love of his life?), "Static", and the various other collections they did together.

If there is interest, I can post a list of what's in "The Avenging World" as well as their other collections.

I will say that reading the original "Avenging World", along with the other 3 all Ditko comics that came out at the same time (having all the Mr A stories and Ditko's other creator-owned Objectivist heroes) while I was also discovering and reading Rand had a big impact on me.

Haven't had a chance to comment on your posts yet but glad to see what you're saying.

Another option for Avenging World is original printings that can be found on Ebay frequently. But I can personally vouch for Static and you've reminded me that I need to try to order some of the collections if they're still available.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

If you want a copy of "Avenging World" or the other stuff put out by Snyder and Ditko, you will probably have to get it from Snyder directly.

"Avenging World" is $25 (its over 200 pages, as I recall), plus postage.

Contact Snyder at RScomics @ aol.com.

(recommend you ask if any of the other Ditko collections are still available. Others of interest would be The Mocker and Static, or the collections of Ditko hero work).

Thanks very much for all the links and info related to Steve Ditko. I have bookmarked the links and will go through them leisurely. I'll keep a lookout for "The Avenging World" collection; I'd love to read what Ditko had to say about creator rights/credits firsthand.

Its pretty clear from the comic that V is an anarchist. In an early sequence in the comic, he has a dialog with the statue of justice on the Old Bailey building, saying something along the lines that since Justice has now fallen under the sway of fascism, that he has a new 'lover': Anarchy.

Keep in mind that under anarchy, the better government is no government. Like a lot of works, 'what comes next' is never shown, and by and large, as there are never any discussions of what a 'better society' would be, you have no idea what Moore thinking it will be.

(an aside. I first read "V for Vendetta" when it first appeared in the black and white UK comic mag "Warrior", which was distributed in the US. V started with the first issue, as did another Moore-written work: Marvelman, which was his revamp of an old, poorly done British Captain Marvel 'clone'. Warrior ended before V got finished, so it would be several years before DC enable the story to be completed. Marvelman would be brought over here as "Miracleman", because Marvel Comics didn't like the title. Go figure.)

Back on Ditko. Last night I pulled out my copy of "Avenging World", the last (thick) collection from Snyder and Ditko, which reprints a lot of Ditko's more philisophical works, both articles and comics. He's got a lot of stuff in there going into creators and creator's rights and creator's credits (when is a creator a sole creator, when is it really a co-creation, etc). He has several items just on the issue of creation rights on Spiderman, both one page comic strips and longer articles. He has to deal with the issue of Stan Lee trying to claim full creator rights, of other creators (Kirby and Joe Simon, whom I don't know if he addressed) tried to also claim credit, and of dealing with the 'fan world' who can't seem to understand what the issues are and to realize that Ditko is a co-creator. (ie, Ditko is a bit pissed that no one else seems to step up and say Lee is wrong in what he says and agrees with Ditko).

That said, "The Avenging World" collection is one that I think most Objectivists would probably be interested in reading. I have no idea why none of the Objectivist-related bookstores or the like carry it. They should, along with most of the other Ditko packages.

Yes, I agree there was some good stuff in the film and perhaps the comic is even better. However because V was just trying to overthrow the Government without any suggestion of what would make a better Government - it looks like he was just an anarchist at heart.

Of course the film almost redeems itself (and the comic too?) with his line to a state firing squad that "you cannot kill an idea" - that ideas are more deadly than bullets. If the audience took that message to heart then the story would actually be in the same league as something like Ditko's Mr A.

"In Robin Snyder's fanzine "The Comics", Ditko has done both articles and artwork addressing the issue of creator credit on Spiderman." Yes, that page from Ditko was also shown in the documentary.

Unfortunately, all the youtube links to the documentary are now down. The BBC don't like their programs getting out on the internet. I'm surprised they allowed it to be posted for as long as it was.

Is a bit philosophically ambiguous apart from extreme individualism and uncomfortable bits of fatalism, so its easy to read into the comic and the movie a libertarian and even objectivist value set and be inspired by it. How can you not like the slogan "People shouldn't be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people"...!

It causes me to forgive a multitude of Moore's 'sins'...

Not sure if I see the work as anarchistic per se, Marcus, but it is most definitely rabidly anti-statist which I appreciate in spite of the lunacy of its creator. Moore, like his hero "V" puts a lot of trust in the oppressed people of the future dystopian Great Britain to "create the best future" after he effectively eliminates the oppressive dictatorship. I think there is enough 'good stuff' in that for freedom lovers of even *our* heightened Objectivist sensibilities to appreciate without shame.

All-

Here are some links to additional articles that some may enjoy.

Over at Silver Bullet Comic Books, there is a four part series of articles as part of their "Silver Soapbox" focusing on Dikto's first, very brief, stay at DC that produced The Creeper and Hawk and Dove. The series is called "Ditko Shrugged".
Part 1: Ayn Rand’s Influence on Steve Ditko’s Craft, Commerce, and Creeper- http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/soapbox/118945139174676.htm
Part 2: Apollonian and Dionysian Conflicts in The Hawk and the Dove and Beware the Creeper- http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/soapbox/118952109462730.htm
Part 3- http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/soapbox/11897806446424.htm
Part 4: After Dikto, the Drought: http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/soapbox/119047224282703.htm

To be honest, for most people here, Part 1 and 2 would be of most interest.

As mentioned, Ditko has done artwork and articles that have addressed the issue of his co-creating of work at Marvel that saw print in "The Comics". One was reprinted in "Alter Ego". This link is to another forum, where you need to scroll down to read his article addressing the issue of whether Jack Kirby or he created Spiderman. http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=18967&PN=1&TPN=5

He does get a bit philsophical here, so I figure this would be of interest to some.

A few comments from a long-time comic fan.

Alan Moore. While I do not care for his politics or life choices, Alan Moore is one of the most well known and popular comic writer out there. I really like a lot that he has written (there are a few I don't like), and probably have a whole bookshelf of trade paperback collections of his works: V for Vendetta, Marvelman, Captain Britian, Supreme, Watchmen, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, the entire America's Best Comics line, etc. He is know for taking what are many times poorly done superhero characters and turning them into something special. He also has a very strong sense of work ethic. If a company does him wrong, he will not work for them. Because of this he will no longer work for Marvel or DC. However, he also does not want to 'screw over' his co-creators, and will allow the reprints of his works to see print, because he does not want his decision to affect them.

Stan Lee. Stan Lee is a self promotor. During the 60s and 70s he was the public face of Marvel Comics, shamelessly promoting them and himself. It's important to understand that because Lee had to run Marvel Comics, being the editor and art director AND create a dozen or so titles (several with 2 different series), that he had to employ a writing method now called the "Marvel Method". Instead of providing a full script to the artists, he would instead discuss a basic plot with them, and have the artists complete the story themselves by breaking down the story across several pages, figuring out who was doing what when, etc. Basically the artist had to be co-plotter and writer, with Lee being not a writer, but co-plotter and dialoguer. Thus the success of Marvel was not solely with Lee, but with Lee in collaboration with creators like Jack Kirby (Fantastic Four, Hulk, Daredevil, Iron Man, Thor, Avenger, X-Men, etc), Ditko (Spider-man, Dr. Stranger), and others like Bill Everett, Wally Wood, Don Heck. Jack Kirby is considered the person who more then anyone else created Marvel Comics with Lee, and like Ditko, got tired of the lack of credit for the enourmous work he had done but little credit for it, and left for DC Comics.

Something to know. After Lee stopped writing at Marvel Comics, nothing he has done since has been as successful. While people like Kirby and Ditko went on to do other things, while their works were never as successful as their partnership with Lee, they did have successes.

As a compare/contrast between Moore and Lee. If Moore was in Lee's place, I don't think he would hesitate to give due credit to his co-creators. And he strikes me as the kind of person that if other people failed to recognize that he co-creators did co-create, would take them to task. Lee is quite happy to take full credit. Something is is quoted as saying.

There is a minor controvery about the creation of Spider-man. Lee had been poor at sharing credit, as the documentary shows. Those who understand how comics are created, understand that it was a collaboration between Lee and Ditko. Interestingly, Lee first went to Kirby to create Spider-man, but the Spiderman that Kirby put forth was NOTHING like what Ditko would later put forth. This shows that with a different co-creator, it would have been a very different creation. Ditko has said that he created the costume (believable, as I'm sure Lee gave him no instructions or guidelines), and ideas like the web shooters, spider signal, etc.

In Robin Snyder's fanzine "The Comics", Ditko has done both articles and artwork addressing the issue of creator credit on Spiderman. Here is a link to one of these: http://www.fantagraphics.com/blog/2007_09_16_fantagraphics_archive.html#...

At least until this new link is removed.

I have updated the links above accordingly.

Thanks Michael for the information on Ditko/ Mr A. / Rand.

If you want to learn more about Mr. A. (probably Ditko's best known 'Objectivist superheroes', other then probably the Question), check out this three part series at Dial B for Blog:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

You'll also get some good background on Rand and Ditko, the Question, a complete Mr. A. story, and more.

The documentary is now no longer available on YouTube.

Overall, I thought it was pretty good. There have been many other people who have written about Ditko and his work, and weren't too friendly toward his Objectivist-inspired work.

AFAIK, Ditko gets NO money from the success of Spiderman. Or any of this other characters, works, etc. I believe the Greg Theakston, who has done reprint editions of Ditko's early work offered to pay Ditko royalties on this work. (something that Theakston was under no legal obligation to do, but which Theakston fealt it was the right thing to do). Ditko refused.

Most of Ditko's Objectivist work is available in 2 now out of print collections from Fantagraphics, and several collections (called 'Ditko Packages') from Robin Snyder & Ditko. You have to contact Snyder to see what he has and the costs. (most of the Mr. A. work is in those 2 collections. I really wish that stuff would be brought back into print).

Ditko's Objectivist work ranges from 'lectures' to stories were the characters are spending more time engaging in lectures (its this stuff that turns off a lot of people, and I have to admit they are a bit boring), to his more interesting heroes.

I'm surprised that none of the Objectivist-related bookstores have taken the effort to make available Ditko's works. I can tell you that reading his works around the time I was also discovering Rand was a big influence on me at the time.

The Ditko Looked Up site is a good repository for info on Ditko: http://www.ditko.comics.org/

I don't know specifically if the "created by" credit in the Spider-man movies automatically equals a royalty. Granted there was a situation with Joe Schuster and Jerry Siegal around the time of the release of the Christopher Reeve "Superman" movie that would make me think that companies would pay something like that if nothing else to avoid the possible bad publicity.

To sum that situation up it basically ended with Siegal threatening to jump from the top of the Warner Brothers headquarters to his death while wearing a Superman costume.

But I don't think Ditko's hurting for money. And if he was I don't think he'd tell anyone.

Glad to hear you liked the documentary Marcus.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

Intrigued by Mike's comment and all his (Moore's) finger rings, I looked up Moore on Wikipedia. He is indeed a nut job.

He is a vegetarian, an anarchist, a practising magician, and worships a Roman snake-deity named Glycon.

I hesitate to admit that I did like V for Vendetta, but I think it is a case of reading my own values into it.

I really enjoyed the documentary, though it was a bit of a letdown that we did not get to see and hear Ditko himself. Thanks for the links, Marcus.

I know almost nothing of the comic books/superheroes genre, and have found posts on the topic interesting. So Landon, Mike - keep posting.

I did not know about the Stan Lee - Steve Ditko controversy regarding the co-creation of Spiderman either. I think what constitutes creation of Spiderman - the initial idea or it's development - is a very interesting and debatable question, and applicable to other ideas. I can see where both of them are coming from and it seems rather obvious that Ditko is co-creator, but I think Stan Lee has a good point, if Spiderman had not taken off, it would have been his creation that failed. It does'nt help Steve's case that his later creations did not do too well. This brings me to the next question, have any of you read Mr. A? I think I may like it.

...I didn't know anything about Moore before this documentary, let alone that he created "V for Vendetta". After seeing that film I thought it was as "A for Anarchy" and Moore confirmed that with his admission that he used to be something of an anarchist in his youth.

I assume that if Ditko is given a credit on the Spiderman films - he would receive some sort of royalty from them too? Maybe that is how he can still afford to have an office in a NY high-rise and still shy away from any publicity?

This was a really interesting documentary anyway about a topic that I knew virtually nothing about and a very interesting Objectivist enigma and artistic genius, Steve Ditko.

Michael understands. I'm happy now.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

But I still love V for Vendetta, even if I have to read my own values into it...

But Moore is an anti-Objectivist worshipper of a Roman pagan god fatalist nut job.

So far it seems to cover a lot of familiar ground to me. But the section on Ditko's Objectivism and the patronizing tone everybody took is why I tend to not pay too much attention to what other people I admire have to say about him.

I will say that I'm rather impressed with the collection of talent they had on display in that segment alone.

Also I hope the Alan Moore section clears up why I react the way I do when people start talking up "V for Vendetta."

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

I've naturally been a fan of Ditko since I became interested in the art form of comic books in the early 1980's. Good to see him getting the attention he deserves! The guy co-created SPIDER MAN for crying out loud!

I enjoyed this. The interview with Stan Lee was very insightful. I know very little about comics but have always been amazed by the stuff folks here have posted about it and have enjoyed the recommendations.

Wm