Music of the Gods

Lindsay Perigo's picture
Submitted by Lindsay Perigo on Mon, 2008-04-21 06:11

"The emotion involved in art is not an emotion in the ordinary meaning of the term. It is experienced more as a 'sense' or a 'feel,' but it has two characteristics pertaining to emotions: it is automatically immediate and it has an intense, profoundly personal (yet undefined) value-meaning to the individual experiencing it.

"The value involved is life, and the words naming the emotion are: 'This is what life means to me.' Regardless of the nature or content of an artist’s metaphysical views, what an art work expresses, fundamentally, under all of its lesser aspects is: 'This is life as I see it.' The essential meaning of a viewer’s or reader’s response, under all of its lesser elements is, 'This is (or is not) life as I see it.'"

—Ayn Rand, The Romantic Manifesto

Introduction

As often happens, I am in hot water—this time on the "RACH” thread—for fulminating against “headbanging caterwauling” and touting the superiority of Romantic music. I am in hot water with the fans of caterwauling for daring to diss their favoured offal, and with a serious music aficionado who insists “Romanticism” should include sundry post-Romantic meanderers and blowhards. He has ranked some thirty Romantic and post-Romantic works according to merit (according to him) in what looks suspiciously like a J. Evans Pritchard modus operandi.

Here I propose to deal only with the “arguments” of the caterwaulers; the case for or against including the likes of Mahler among the Great Romantics will have to wait ... except to say, paraphrasing Shakespeare: “Brevity is the soul of beauty.”

First, a preliminary question: why does this matter matter? Why do I get so exercised about it? Why can’t I just “live and let live” and leave empty heads and deformed souls alone to wallow in their frightful cacophonies?

My answer: I am perfectly prepared to do that—but they’re not prepared to leave me or any other decent, innocent human being alone. They shove their filth at us at every turn, and I am beyond fed up with it. As Rand might say, "These are the commandos of the haters' army, who crawl out of the sewer of centuries and shake themselves in public, splattering muck over the passers-by. ... The passers-by are the rest of us, who have to live, breathe and work in this atmosphere."

As I said in my RACH editorial:

“They do not rule the world officially but they have taken it over. They have taken over the shopping malls, the shops, the bars and restaurants, the gyms and rugby fields, the interludes between television programmes and even the programmes themselves. Nothing is uncorrupted by these aliens—even opera singers perform with them.

“It’s time to shame these aesthetic thugs into oblivion. Musical masochism is for consenting adults in private; it shouldn’t be sadistically imposed on unconsenting adults in public. Ideally its perpetrators should follow the logic of one of their number, the Slipknot drummer who, when told his was music to commit suicide by, said, ‘We must be doing something right.’ I would certainly encourage that alien and all its fellows to top themselves and leave the earth to human beings.”

Since it’s unlikely that they’ll opt for suicide, unfortunately, it is they who need to be admonished to “live and let live” (if you can call what they do living). They should not be averse to a campaign for the voluntary clearing away of their pollution from places where it’s unsolicited.

Rand said:

"I am not willing to surrender the world to the jerky contortions of self-inducedly brainless bodies with empty eye sockets who perform in stinking basements the immemorial rituals of staving off terror, which are a dime a dozen in any jungle—and to the quavering witch doctors who call it 'art.'"

Well dears, neither am I. When some skunk squirts its filth in my face without my consent, I will punch its snout. And I shall campaign against skunkery in general.

I should say that the reason this essay has taken a while is that it was becoming an academic-style treatise on Romanticism in music. Well, the Internet is replete with such treatises, by people better qualified than I. All I ever intended was an informed layman’s polemic against The Age of Crap as manifest in music, and against the idea that music is somehow exempt from the standard, healthy Objectivist strictures against cultural relativism. Realising I had departed from my brief, I had to start over to get back on course.

I have used Dr. Richard Goode as my foil in this essay because, like Everest, he’s there, and because, in this debate, he is perfect in his immorality (I say this in a caring kind of way). He is delectably quintessential!

Cutting to the chase

So why do I feel entitled to pile on value-judgments such as “sub-human,” “skunks,” “filth” and so on in the realm of music? Didn’t Rand herself say:

“Until a conceptual vocabulary is discovered and defined, no objectively valid criterion of esthetic judgment is possible in the field of music … No one, therefore, can claim the objective superiority of his choices over the choices of others. Where no objective proof is available, it's every man for himself—and only for himself”?

Yes, she did. And, I submit, she was wrong.

Note the practical implication of her dictum: that no one can claim the objective superiority of the Tchaikovsky and Beethoven posted on the Van Cliburn thread over the Slayer posted on the RACH thread. This is absurd on its face—but of course, “on its face” won’t do for those who seize on Rand’s statement as an excuse to remain in the sewer. So let’s keep going.

What did Rand mean by “conceptual vocabulary”?

She tells us. Such a vocabulary would explain how a work evokes the emotions it does. “Why does a succession of sounds produce an emotional reaction? Why does it involve man’s deepest emotions and his crucial, metaphysical values? How can sounds reach man’s emotions directly, in a manner that seems to bypass his intellect? What does a certain combination of sounds do to man’s consciousness to make him identify it as gay or sad?”

Why need we know these things in order to pass objective judgment? What difference would it make? That she doesn’t tell us. But she does reiterate:

“The formulation of a common vocabulary of music would require these answers. It would require: a translation of the musical experience, the inner experience, into conceptual terms; an explanation of why certain sounds strike us a certain way; a definition of the axioms of musical perception, from which the appropriate esthetic principles could be derived, which would serve as a base for the objective validation of esthetic judgments.”

Phew!

This, Rand goes on, means we need to do what we currently cannot do in musical perception--separate subject and object:

“In listening to music, a man cannot tell clearly, neither to himself nor to others—and therefore, cannot prove—which aspects of his experience are inherent in the music and which are contributed by his own consciousness. He experiences it as an indivisible whole, he feels as if the magnificent exaltation were there in the music—and he is helplessly bewildered when he discovers that some men do experience it and some do not. In regard to the nature of music, mankind is still on the perceptual level of awareness.”

Now, it is my contention that Rand has set the bar way too high here—we don’t need to know all that in order to judge—and that furthermore, my contention has her imprimatur:

“The deadly monotony of primitive music—the endless repetition of a few notes and of a rhythmic pattern that beats against the brain with the regularity of the ancient torture of water drops falling on a man’s skull—paralyses cognitive processes, obliterates awareness and disintegrates the mind. ... Primitive music becomes his narcotic [that of a modern man brought up as a 'mentally helpless savage']: it wipes out the groping, it reassures him and reinforces his lethargy, it offers him temporarily the sense of a reality to which his stagnant torpor is appropriate.” (Note, incidentally, what she is describing as primitive music is still a slight advance on rap, which was embryonic in her time: rap has no notes!)

If that’s not passing judgment I don’t know what is! So, is Rand seriously arguing that she would then baulk at the final hurdle and decline to pronounce primitive music inferior to Romantic? She already has so pronounced it!

And with good reason.

Romanticism vs. Headbanging

See, “the endless repetition of a few notes and of a rhythmic pattern that beats against the brain with the regularity of the ancient torture of water drops falling on a man’s skull” is a near-perfect description of, to cite a convenient example, the track, “Rain of Blood” by “thrash metal” band Slayer, linked to on RACH. (Apparently “thrash metal” is a sibling of “death metal.”) The piece is certainly melodically challenged. The rhythm is faster than water drops, to be sure, but the way it beats against the brain is definitely torture (which some clearly enjoy, but I’ll come to that). The description omits, since it wasn’t specifically what Rand had in mind, lyrics that are inaudible (and, on further investigation, unintelligible) rendered by a voice that is unlistenable, the voice of someone being tortured. It omits the seemingly deliberate over-amping of the guitars to effect distortion. It says nothing about harmony—but then, there’s not much to say anyway. Overall, the description could easily be of “Rain of Blood.”

By way of cleansing contrast, let us remind ourselves what makes Romantic music Romantic music, and what we know about music itself that permits us to judge.

We know that the primary components of music are melody, harmony and rhythm—and the greatest of these is melody, the ordering of tones. Melody is fundamental. As plot is to literature, so melody is to music. Whistle a tune, unaccompanied (no harmonies), each note equal in length (no rhythm)—it’s still music. No melody—no music. “It’s the toon, stoopid!”

We know that certain simultaneous combinations of tones (harmony), because of the mathematical relationship of their frequencies, are, as a matter of metaphysical fact, integratable by the human brain (consonant) and others are not (dissonant); that this is true for all human beings apart from the tone-deaf; that the resolution of dissonance into consonance helps give a piece suspense, sophistication and satisfaction, a sense of home-coming; and so we may rightly judge the deliberate refusal to resolve for the sake of refusal to resolve to be an act of sabotage and assassination.

We know that in the Romantic period (nineteenth and early twentieth centuries) composers and performers pushed the boundaries of every musical element, primary and secondary, achieving an unprecedented emotional expressiveness while avoiding the descent into the atonal anarchy that followed. New instruments, bigger orchestras; new forms, and the expansion of old forms; the coming of age of opera and ballet; virtuoso stars, like our modern-day “celebs” only with talent; the cult of the conductor; more inventive melodies using bigger intervals between notes; greater dynamic range—fff (fortississimo: very, very loud) to ppp (pianississimo: very, very soft); more daring harmonies (chromatic and dissonant, without recourse to the sabotage or assassination that became de rigueur later) modulating more frequently into other keys; more rhythmic variety, including greater use of syncopation, rubato (bending of the rhythm), accelerando (speeding up) and ritardando (slowing down), changing of the time signature within movements, etc. They honored but were not straitjacketed by the formalism of classicism, stretching but not eschewing the rules that make music cohere. They knew with their predecessors that coherence was integral to integration, and integration to harmoniousness, and harmoniousness to beauty. They exercised freedom within the rule of law—the perfect mirror of what was going on politically.

Thus did they bring individualism to music—they were each distinguishable from the other; each imposed his distinctive stamp upon the form without going out of it (at least not to the point of disintegration). They united the idiomatic with the idiosyncratic, reason with emotion, Apollo with Dionysus (albeit with a leaning towards the latter, via, it must be admitted, that villain Rousseau). They transformed the “universal language” into an individual language. As one commentary puts it:

“Romantic-era composers kept the forms of Classical music. But the Romantic composer did not feel constrained by form. Breaking through boundaries was now an honorable goal shared by the scientist, the inventor, and the political liberator. Music was no longer universal; it was deeply personal and sometimes nationalistic. The personal sufferings and triumphs of the composer could be reflected in stormy music that might even place a higher value on emotion than on beauty. Music was not just happy or sad; it could be wildly joyous, terrified, despairing, or filled with deep longings.”

We know that, in Objectivist terms, they projected as never before, if not for the first time, man the passionate valuer—their symphonies and concerti were “to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield” set to music and writ large. We know that Rand's description of Richard Halley's Concerto of Deliverance could only have been of a Romantic composition:

"It was a symphony of triumph. The notes flowed up. They spoke of rising and they were the rising itself, they were the essence and form of upward motion, they seemed to embody every human act and thought that had ascent as its motive. It was a sunburst of sound, breaking out of hiding and spreading open. It had the freedom of release and the tension of purpose. It swept space clean and left nothing but the joy of an unobstructed effort. Only a faint echo within the sounds spoke of that from which the music had escaped, but spoke in laughing astonishment at the discovery that there was no ugliness or pain, and there never had had to be. It was the song of an immense deliverance." (Rach 3, anyone—how about the middle section of the second movement?)

In short, we know that in every important aspect of it one can name, music—demonstrably, empirically, as a matter of fact—reached its apogee in the Romantic era. Romanticism was the culmination of what preceded it, and the transcending of it; it was the high point of musical evolution to date; it was the “total height”—and it remains so. (What came after was disintegration into vagueness, gratuitous dissonance, ostentation, random plinkety-plonk, silly silences and traffic noise.) Not knowing the physiology of how music evokes the responses that it does in us, not knowing how many parts object and how many part subject are involved, cannot gainsay this fact, the supreme stature of Romantic music, and its superiority over any modern throwback to “primitive music” such as that of Slayer, which it seems ludicrous to mention in the same breath.

This superiority can also be ascribed, I should add, to the myriad forms of what one might call “mini-Romanticism” such as operetta, musical comedy, jazz (the intelligible kind), pre-80s pop, movie scores, Ayn Rand’s “tiddly-wink music” and so on. The standard pop tune of my youth was a veritable miniature sonata with a clear theme, stated, developed then reiterated (A-B-A), value-orientated (usually about love!) with meaningful if unchallenging lyrics, audibly articulated. Any of the foregoing is superior to Slayer and all other headbanging caterwauling.

Romanticism and sense of life

Now at this point someone might object: “All this is very well, but you’re over-emphasizing the technical and structural aspects of the compositions and glossing over the business of one’s emotional response to them. After all, headbangers can be complex and clever too. And the fact is, whether you approve or not, Slayer hits my emotional spot and Rach doesn’t. End of story.”

And of course, it is the end of the story if you want it to be, if you’re content with that. Let’s just not continue to tout the relativist fiction that all music is created equal.

And let’s see what can be observed about the emotional response, since the objector is quite right: that is the whole point of the exercise, and music, like no other art form, gets to the point straight away.

I assume that what the objector and I seek from music is the same thing: what I call value-swoon: “This is life as I see it”—in my case, in the form of a spiritual orgasm born of orgiastic love-making between me, the artist, the composer and life itself. Value-swoon consummated by tears. If there are no tears, I haven’t fully value-swooned. Tears of joy, poignance, worship, “unclouded exaltation” in the presence of gods and the godly, of beauty inexpressible in words. The solemn gaze on Van Cliburn’s face as he looks up at his conductor at the conclusion of the aforementioned Tchaikovsky (Piano Concert #1, Movement Three), having thundered spectacularly up and down the length and breadth of the piano and pressed down the final home-coming tonic chord, says it all. Breathes there the man with soul so dead he cannot behold this and exult: “What a piece of work is man!”? This response, of course, is life-affirming, and so, by Objectivist standards, good. Moreover, it is the response the work and the performance are intended to evoke, so the subject’s reaction is consistent with the content of the object.

Now, it's true that one needn't seek the full monty every time, which would be rather exhausting, and there are less weighty but perfectly legitimate reasons one might listen to some types of music. "Objectively superior," after all, implies an answer to the questions, "Superior to what, in what respect and for what purpose?" Country is best for a good laugh (who can resist the hilarity of some retard yodelling about his wife leaving him for the horse?), for instance, and The Carpenters are great for getting to sleep. But it turns out metal fans do actually seek the full monty. Or at least, at first glance, they claim to. Dr. (PhD in philosophy) Richard Goode, Slayer’s cheerleader on the RACH thread, said there:

“Honestly, if you don't feel glad to be alive after a good pounding by Slayer, the Queens of the Stone Age or even Hayseed Dixie, then there’s something wrong with you.” (Note, there’s something wrong with you. Evidently it’s OK to say there’s something wrong with you if you don’t like Slayer but not OK to say there’s something wrong with you if you do!)

But hang on a minute! Pressed by me to explain just how a “good pounding by Slayer” made him “glad to be alive,” Dr. Goode responded as follows:

“Anger. Energy. Passion. Defiance. Catharsis. Slayer are musical genius.”

So, is it anger, etc., that makes Dr. Goode feel glad to be alive, that gives him his value-swoons? I tried to find out:

“Anger about what? Passion for what? Defiance of what? Given that ‘catharthis’ is the release of pent-up emotions, why are your emotions pent up (I did warn you that pomowanking makes one passionless)? Wherein lies Slayer's ‘musical genius’?”

Alas, my inquiries elicited no further response.

Which entitles us to assume, I think, that the anger is not a justified, discrete anger about some particular injustice or other, else Dr. Goode would have mentioned it; it is a generalised, metaphysical anger at life itself that makes Goode feel good!

Now, remember what Rand said about the way music affects us:

“Psycho-epistemologically, the pattern of the response to music seems to be as follows: one perceives the music, one grasps the suggestion of a certain emotional state and, with one's sense of life serving as the criterion, one appraises this state as enjoyable or painful, desirable or undesirable, significant or negligible, according to whether it corresponds to or contradicts one's fundamental feeling about life.”

In the case of Dr. Goode and Slayer, he perceives their music, grasps the suggestion of anger and defiance and appraises it as enjoyable, desirable and significant, since it corresponds to his fundamental feeling about life. He says, “This is life as I see it.” Which, I respectfully submit, taking it at its own word, is anti-life—and the anti-life, need I point out, is, according to Objectivism, bad! Calling it and what evoked it “inferior” is letting it off lightly!

Inferior Music and Philosophy

None of this occurs in a vacuum. It’s no coincidence, but rather entirely congruent, that among Dr. Goode’s other pin-up boys is the philosopher David Hume, who taught that concepts, the means by which human beings make sense of reality, have no basis in reality; there are just brute facts, and the act of integrating them into concepts is entirely arbitrary.

Here’s Rand on Hume:

“When Hume declared that he saw objects moving about, but never saw such a thing as ‘causality’—it was the voice of Attila that men were hearing. It was Attila’s soul that spoke when Hume declared that he experienced a flow of fleeting states inside his skull, such as sensations, feelings or memories, but had never caught the experience of such a thing as consciousness or self. When Hume declared that the apparent existence of an object did not guarantee that it would not vanish spontaneously next moment, and the sunrise of today did not prove that the sun would rise tomorrow; when he declared that philosophical speculation was like a game, like chess or hunting, of no significance whatever to the practical course of human existence, since reason proved that existence was unintelligible, and only the ignorant maintained the illusion of knowledge—all of this accompanied by vehement opposition to the mysticism of the Witch Doctor and by protestations of loyalty to reason and science—what men were hearing was the manifesto of a philosophical movement that can be designated only as Attila-ism.”

Here’s Goode on the significance or otherwise of philosophy, in a SOLO exchange with James Valliant:

Valliant: As a philosopher, can you tell me what the practical upshot of your work is, i.e., its implications to human life?

Goode: Hahaha. You're kidding, right?

Stretching too long a bow?

Hume was a destroyer. Slayer, whose headbanging has included “songs” sympathetic to the 9/11 terrorists and Joseph Mengele, are destroyers. And all other headbangers. They are Hume’s chickens come home to roost. Richard, who claims there is no basis in reason for freedom, is an enabler of the destroyers (I grant he’d be horrified to think so). All three are archetypes. Hume, the clever/stupid philosopher, for whom logic and facts ne’er will meet; Goode, the modern “cool” sophisticat, monotoned and sardonic, getting his kicks from clever-dick nitpicking and word games; Slayer, the ugly reality behind the philosophers’ pseudo-civilized veneer, like so many “metal” bands of whichever variety—“thrash,” “death” or otherwise. It’s useful and instructive to see them all appropriately aligned—all nihilists together in this post-modern Age of Nihilism.

Conclusion

Nihilism is as objectively bad in esthetics as it is in any other realm—and in music as in any other part of esthetics, Rand notwithstanding. Appraising a positive response to musical nihilists as good, as Goode does, is bad. These animals intend to purvey ugliness and mindless rage and like nothing better in response than the perverted value-swoon of the nihilist, the pomowanker’s snicker of approval, perhaps more accurately called the "anti-value swoon." Again, the subject's response is congruent with the object's content.

We all hear the same thing. We all recognise deliberate ugliness and rage for ugliness’s and rage’s sake, just as surely as we all hear a minor chord as somber and a major chord as cheerful. It’s our responses to the ugliness and rage that differ, and the issue here is: evaluating the responses. It’s a question of values, not physiology. Life-affirming values = good; life-negating values (anti-values) = bad. So, if you respond with approval to deliberate ugliness and gratuitous rage, if you seek out and wallow in the anti-value swoon, then, in Dr. Goode’s immortal words, “There’s something wrong with you.” And that’s a fact.

I’m reminded of a painter friend from years ago who read The Fountainhead. He got it. He understood it as well as I. But he chose to blank it out, because, “If I take it seriously it’ll turn my life upside down” (his life being in thrall to axe-through-head tutors).

In his exceptional SOLO essay, “Something Better than Rage, Pain, Anger and Hurt,” Peter Cresswell exhorts:

“Music is our food of the spirit. So do try to be careful what you eat.”

(This admonition, by the way, doesn’t mean we all have to like the same music any more than we have to like the same food. It means we should eat food rather than feces.)

Musically speaking, we have whole generations eating poo and militantly relishing it. It ill-behoves Objectivists to tell them there’s no objective reason not to do so. Objectivism is nothing if not a command to rise. To those addicted to feces but wanting to rise from the sewer, I commend Mr. Cresswell’s essay. He knows whereof he speaks. He has himself risen!

Just these last few days on SOLO, artist Michael Newberry has recounted the story of someone who presented plastic-wrapped blood from her miscarriages as an artwork, and asked:

“Many of you here are freaked out about the possibility of radical Muslims taking over the world. But what is it that could weaken the West so much that it could fall victim to a primitive anti-modern society? When I see America, I see and experience many great things, lots of freedoms. It's much easier to do what you like here than in the other countries I have lived in. But, I also see the postmodern art world everywhere, with its cynical, disintegrated, anti-conceptual mind-set, and pathetic sense of life. That is America too. What if art plays a major role in the health, flourishing, and spirit of country or a culture? If that is so, aren't we more in trouble from the inside than the outside?”

We’re certainly in trouble from the inside. I quote finally from my inaugural speech at SOLOC 1 in 2001. The "jungle cacophony" alluded to is Eminem—I had just compared Johann Strauss and Eminem as exemplars of two contrasting cultures, antipodal pop icons, one danced to by human beings, the other jerked to by the eyeless-socketed ones:

“ ... get out there in the marketplace and promote good art as zealously as you promote good philosophy, both being necessary for the preservation of freedom. The tide is against us at the moment—wherever we turn our ears are assaulted by jungle cacophony of the kind we've just heard. In the visual realm … well, we've just been reading on the SOLO Forum about the Canadian artist I alluded to earlier who won a prestigious award for ejaculating into vials; there was the Turner Award in Britain, recently bestowed on someone whose ‘artwork’ was a room with an electric light in it. These abominations are a dime a dozen right now; it is, as I often say, the Age of Crap. I want SOLO to wage an intellectual war on it every bit as relentless as the physical War on Terrorism.”

That war should include the unabashed proclamation of Romantic music’s objective superiority.

Romantic music is composed and performed by the heroes in our midst. It speaks and appeals to the best within us. It awakens our capacity for rapture. It is appreciated and adored by the passionately enlightened. It is inspired by and inspires the most intensely life-affirming value-swoons possible to man. If the expression, "total passion for the total height" means anything, it finds that meaning in Romantic music. In terms of what went into it and what can be taken out of it, Romantic music is simply the best.

And that’s a fact.


( categories: )

Landmark Forum ...

Lindsay Perigo's picture

is an intense, en masse, group counseling weekend which is existentialist based with snippets of cognitive therapy dotted through. The "leader" emotionally breaks down the individuals in the group by using group dynamics like shyness, self consciousness, verbal aggression, long long sitting sessions and no toilet breaks. In this context, individuals from the group "share" highly charged, traumatic emotional experiences that forged their different pasts. The upshot is intended to be an empowerment to reform your thoughts about yourself in order for you to create the life you've always wanted to have.

Where did you get that bullshit from?

You mean I can't have the life I always wanted to have and pee as well? Damn!

Tis a huge lucrative enterprise originating in none other than America, and has been adopted in every Western country and a lot of Eastern ones too.

I can imagine. But how do you know this silly Rosie wench is into it?

I look forward to you introducing me to your real stuff, Lord Baron.

Oh groan. I knew I'd regret it. Smiling

Landmark Forum...

Olivia's picture

is an intense, en masse, group counseling weekend which is existentialist based with snippets of cognitive therapy dotted through. The "leader" emotionally breaks down the individuals in the group by using group dynamics like shyness, self consciousness, verbal aggression, long long sitting sessions and no toilet breaks. In this context, individuals from the group "share" highly charged, traumatic emotional experiences that forged their different pasts.
The upshot is intended to be an empowerment to reform your thoughts about yourself in order for you to create the life you've always wanted to have.

Tis a huge lucrative enterprise originating in none other than America, and has been adopted in every Western country and a lot of Eastern ones too.

I look forward to you introducing me to your real stuff, Lord Baron. Smiling

Olivia!

Lindsay Perigo's picture

Still in stitches over your response to Newberry. SO funny! So ... right!! Smiling

Felt like a commanding introduction to something exquisite about to follow.

That's the problem with Cathcart's lot: the "something exquisite about to follow" never happens. They just start meandering again!

I'll go listen when the CD currently playing finishes. Brahms Symphony #1. Irritating as hell. But the last movement is worth the price of admission.

Linz

PS—What is "Landmark Forumed"?

PPS—Yes, the VW is very nice, but you're too easily satisfied, Lady S. Next time you're here I'll introduce you to some real stuff. Smiling

Chris..

Olivia's picture

I loved that clip. 'Tis very cinematic indeed. Felt like a commanding introduction to something exquisite about to follow.

Not such a Rosey Purchase...

Olivia's picture

A racket is when something happens and you give it meaning which doesn't exist. It starts when young and then happens so often that you just hear the meaning as soon as you get close to the “happening”. Once you can recognise the racket each time it happens you will eventually lose it.

Oh dear. I see you've been Landmark Forumed. You'll have to do a bit better than that cheap psychobabble if you want to be taken seriously on this site.

You keep harping about opening one's mind to "new" forms of art as if that is some great virtue. Thing is, I've purposely narrowed mine down in order to experience the best during my lifetime. That goes for art, lovers and friendships. BTW thank you for the compliment to my beauty. Very kind, even if a little tongue in cheek.

Mr. Goode... I must confess that I find your smarty-man sophistry a waste of good reading time, so I tend to bypass your posts. Especially after that revolting argument gleaned from Brendan's spewings that you posed regarding Rand's attraction to Branden. Therefore, it wouldn't be wise for you to draw any implications about my posts if they are based upon your own. Savvy?

Dear Mr. Newberry,

despite how often your posts vex me, I want you to know that I think you are a truly great artist as well as a perfectly pompous prick.

Sincerely
Kiwi-Liv
Eye

Ha, Cathcart!

Lindsay Perigo's picture

Was wondering when you'd answer the phone! Smiling

I think there's a clue to our different preferences, aside from your egregious congenital wrongness (tease, for the Americans reading this), in the following:

But now I just see it as too easy and "pleasant" and I'm pretty sure that I'm repeating an oft-used criticism that Rach tends toward the popular, sentimental and unchallenging.

We can discard "unchallenging" since by your own admission at least the Symphony #2 (GLORIOUS!!!!!!!!! The third movement may actually be the apogee of Romanticism) still challenges you. And try #1, written when he was a whippersnapper!

"Popular" is not a sin.

"Sentimental" is the key to it. Why is that bad, exactly?

I know someone who's done a pretty good job of educating himself out of filth. But he tends toward your crowd. And he's the most UNsentimental bastard I know!!

Wait. Scratch that. He's *secretly* sentimental but would die rather than admit it, much less *show* it!

Your crowd make a lot of noise but they don't make one cry. That's intentional. We can't have crying! They are Romanticism with a condom! Smiling

Also, they remind me of what Rossini said of Wagner: "Wagner is a composer who has beautiful moments but awful quarter-hours." You have to go looking for the good moments—with my crowd every moment is either foreplay or climax. Or the post-coital cigarette. Smiling

(Oh my, we can't have smoking either!)

Someone called? :-)

Chris Cathcart's picture

I am in hot water with the fans of caterwauling for daring to diss their favoured offal, and with a serious music aficionado who insists “Romanticism” should include sundry post-Romantic meanderers and blowhards.

Yeah, most of the works I listed fell into the time period roughly 1910 through 1945, usually considered part of the "modern" period and the composers who compose in an obviously or recognizably Romantic idiom but with elements of modernism might get dubbed "post-Romantic," though I think that does a disservice to Romanticism, since in my view these composers do a lot to give a voice to the greatest aspirations of Romanticism. They do more to introduce those elements of aural conflict or dissonance that makes it less easy to like and listen to for a novice, but which gives fuller emotional expression once you've gotten used to and grasped their language. (I'm still working on this myself when it comes to the symphonies of Mahler, which still strike me as a lot of, well, bombastic clashing, meandering and blowhardism.)

I use the word "easy" above because let's say you take a work like Rachmaninov's second piano concerto. Something I was a big fan of early on in my classical listening education. But now I just see it as too easy and "pleasant" and I'm pretty sure that I'm repeating an oft-used criticism that Rach tends toward the popular, sentimental and unchallenging. (That's not quite accurate; I think his second concerto is like that, but I've found his other works, e.g., his second symphony or "Isle of the Dead" more difficult to get into, which makes me look forward to trying them again.)

Somewhere here or there Linz mentions a book on the great composers by Harold Schonberg. In that book, Schonberg denigrates Sibelius as "deserving an honorable place amongst the minor composers." Now c'mon. But anyway, when it comes to these alleged "post-Romantic meanderers and blowhards" my two favorite composers (of this period or any other) are Sibelius and Ralph Vaughan Williams, and I'm not sure which of these two I could least go without. Then there's Delius, who is more straightforwardly Romantic, IMO, particularly in the works I like most from him (starting with "Walk to the Paradise Garden" from his A Village Romeo and Juliet. Then there's that weird guy Carl Nielsen, definitely more of an acquired taste but very expressive and engrossing at times, and then there's that almost quintessential of Romantic composers in some respects, Samuel Barber. His Romanticism is arguably over-the-top at times, even though it's hard to characterize him as simply Romantic, as he had a unique voice that incorporated other, "modern"-style sounds. (I guess the intro to that voice is best known amongst the general listenership with the Adagio for Strings.)

But I like Sibelius and Vaughan Williams the most, so let's start there. For the life of me I can't figure out why Linz doesn't get Sibelius's second symphony. I know I had trouble with even his second symphony when my thing was Beethoven, Brahms, Dvorak, and Tchaikovsky more than anybody, but it started to click for me as I was driving around one night playing it in my car, probably starting in the second movement where the orchestra does that "swelling" thing, but then especially with the buildup to the triumphant ending, which had me sitting there afterwards saying, "Now this is why the best in classical music simply can't be topped by whatever comes out of other musical genres." In time, I came to appreciate Sibelius's later symphonies as well. But his second is not exactly inaccessible or hard to grasp, and I consider it the quintessential "mainstream Romantic" symphony. His 5th is his other obviously Romantic work; the other later works are his more unique "modern" voice, and while I could understand the criticism that his 4th the work of a meandering blowhard, it's still got enough Romanticism and it's enough the work of a genius that it merits regular listens for me.

I've yet to see Linz comment at all on Vaughan Williams, and while I base my fandom of RVW on a small number of his works, I have a tough time getting into most of his output. But that small number that I like is . . . well, I'm not sure I'd say it's clearly Romantic. It's pastoral, it's haunting, it's cinematic, it's incomparably pretty. And hardly the work of a meandering bloward. Whatever label you want to give to it, I'll leave you with an all-too brief clip/excerpt and let you decide. It's something hardly touched even in classical music much less the other genres (if I could find an easy link for the climax of the Andante Tranquillo from Barber's 1st I'd link that too for some comparison):

http://www.rvwsociety.com/vwmp...

Michael M

Lindsay Perigo's picture

I often find it interesting that many "grow to like" this music. Having been subjected to it in high school, college, on the radio, etc., my consciousness simply cannot take it anymore, even music I once may have liked/endured. My experience has been diametrically opposite, I have grown to hate it as I have become happier and happier. My consciousness simply does not want a "good pounding", but rather to be uplifted and inspired.

Doing cartwheels. Smiling

Status Quo

Rosie Purchas's picture

*Doing what everyone else is doing because they do it, as you suggest, has never interest me.

Did I suggest that? Not what I believe so I don't think so! It is staggering how much misinterpretation goes on here. People seem to read something, rephrase it and give it a completely subjective (and wrong!) meaning. What I said, in reference to others, was that I am interested in understanding other world views. Not adopting them.

*Be happy, don't worry that I won't join you in your quest to be part of the status quo.
Status quo= fixed or unchanging position
The point of my contribution from the outset was to suggest opening up from fixed and unchanging positions. Lol. And to avoid further misunderstanding, this state of mind does not require throwing away your preferred tastes. 

Have a great weekend! Interesting that you are working with charcoal - do you put your work online? I am very interested in art.

"Odd how you proclaim

Newberry's picture

"Odd how you proclaim atomistic separateness in this matter yet were calling folk "pigs" for not rallying around you a few weeks back."

ahhahahah, If I recall correctly I prefaced that post by explaining I was speaking in tongues; channeling the styles of American pomposity and New Zealander rudeness. Anyway, Bosch will confirm that I know pigs are good.

About lynching, Lindsay you are on your own there. You use a style that often invites antagonism. I guess all good polemics does that. Perhaps, you could see it as an honor?

"False version"!!! I thought I was indulging in sexual metaphors not reciting facts!!!

Your compliments were earned.

And I couldn't possibly fit your shoes, my feet are way too big, one of them keeps getting caught in my mouth. Smiling

I will see if I can tie in something from your presentation, I already got the eccentric Aristophanes in there.

 

 

 

www.michaelnewberry.com

Damn, Mark, it took a lot

Newberry's picture

Damn, Mark, it took a lot of composure to deflect you away from bullying me!!!

About context: I have always had a great working relationship with TAS. And they have always treated me with respect, credit, and payment (you cannot beat that.). Also I have been incredibly impressed by many of the presentations they have brought forth. Two that blew me away were Marsha Enright's on the psychology of flow, and Susan McClosky's presentation on comparing Atlas to the Parables of Jesus, and epics of Homer.

Their episode with Lindsay carries almost no weight in my personal estimation of them. So different contexts for different folks.

 

www.michaelnewberry.com

Loyalty to values

Lindsay Perigo's picture

Michael, Mark is absolutely right, and I'm impressed that he's digging in over it. Independence doesn't excuse sanctioning the perfidy of others. You were aware of the brayings of the lynch mob, you sat mute through them—then you cashed in on the lynching. I would have let it lie if you hadn't then posted a completely false version of events right here on this thread yesterday—in which case, as I said, I wasn't prepared to "let that bullshit pass."

Odd how you proclaim atomistic separateness in this matter yet were calling folk "pigs" for not rallying around you a few weeks back.

All of that said, I still do appreciate your comments on my essay. Perhaps you'll give a nod in its direction when you stand in my shoes in July.

Michael

Mark Hubbard's picture

I agree with most of your last post: what Objectivist could disagree with the quantum of it. However, for me, there is the flaw I have been trying to push: that is, you seem to think you are in a vacuum and can ignore context.

My comments have been specifically to the context of this single speaking engagement, in which Hudgin let the ball drop ignobly. In my opinion, no, if it were me, (while of course being free to speak where I wish), given the context of this engagement, how the slot arose due to cowardice that has reflected adversely on the integrity of this organisation, allowing itself to be swayed by bullying, I would have known to not touch it, as it could only speak similarly adversely as to my own character.

 

As to the 'digs' about people requiring leaders, you will of course have realised that could not be applicable to yours truly.

Well Mark. I guess I will be

Newberry's picture

Well Mark. I guess I will be in hot water by everyone. You see I already complimented Lindsay twice on this superb presentation. So the way I see it someone from TAS could criticize me exactly in the same way as you, because I complimented Lindsay.

I also could have been criticized from TAS for speaking at the first Solo conference. To add more coals to the fire I have offered to speak at ARI, but I didn't hear back.

I would have no problem speaking at at Postmodern Art Convention, and etc.

Simply put, I am not part of a group. I speak for, and represent myself. Really, it makes life so much easier when you think that adults are responsible for themselves. Hudgins doesn't need my defending him. Lindsay doesn't need it. I mean everyone might like to be defended but the reality is you, me, everyone is on their own. Accept for those people who are looking for a leader to follow. Eye

Look at all the people that love Rand's work, and look at all the disagreements among them.

I apologized for giving Lindsay a friendly jab, but the jab wasn't ill intentioned.

I will repeat this again, my honor and artistic integrity doesn't have anything to do with the clashes of others. (That is an impossible standard to uphold.) It has everything to do with that I am true to and act for myself. The rub is that I don't expect any less from the people I am close to.

 

 

www.michaelnewberry.com

Michael

Mark Hubbard's picture

But I can tell you that my honor and artistic integrity doesn't have anything to do with the clashes of others.

 

It bloody well does, and it is either incredibly naive or duplicitous to put forth such an argument.

Friend or not of Linz, it makes no difference: you had all the facts to make an objective judgment as to Hudgin's duplicitous moral character, and cowardliness, throughout this episode, and to thus rush at the offer of this slot after his retraction to Linz, is to affirm his actions, sanctify them, and become similarly infected by the same dishonour and lack of any integrity, artistic and otherwise, that now marks Hudgin.

Excellent Essay, Linz

Michael Moeller's picture

Among those who I have known that liked rap and metal, I have noticed a certain malevolence and anger at the world, precisely as you describe.

I often find it interesting that many "grow to like" this music. Having been subjected to it in high school, college, on the radio, etc., my consciousness simply cannot take it anymore, even music I once may have liked/endured. My experience has been diametrically opposite, I have grown to hate it as I have become happier and happier. My consciousness simply does not want a "good pounding", but rather to be uplifted and inspired. The desire and need for those "value experiences" that Rand describes in "Our Value Deprivation".

Although this comparison is completely improper in terms of artistic ability, its the same reason I no longer read Dostoevsky--i.e. I want something better than being subjected to a "chamber of horrors".

  "...amplified music

Newberry's picture

 

"...amplified music doesn't appeal to me."

{blink} Is that what it is?

Seems pretty arbitrary to me.

 

Hey Billy,

Oh, its not a line or anything intellectual. I simply don't feel anything when music is created through amplification. I only identified that later. But as a teenager the most boring times I have ever had in my life were attending rock concerts. Undoubtedly I would enjoy a great guitarist playing an acoustic (?) guitar, not electric.

 

www.michaelnewberry.com

Mark: "If you'd had honour,

Newberry's picture

Mark: "If you'd had honour, and artistic integrity, you should have told Hudgin's where to stick that slot."
Mark,
You actually caught me out, I shouldn't make fun at anyones expense with this. I am not a friend of Lindsay's, never have been. But he is such a brilliant guy, he reminds me of Oscar Wilde. It's in the public record, by Lindsay's own account, that he sometimes he flies off the handle. He also proudly asserts that he wouldn't have it any other way.
I was ripping him for behavior that in some part, small or not, that caused him problems as I saw it. I am sure he wouldn't have his actions or statements any other way, so it was pointless for me to draw attention to it.
From my perspective Lindsay and Solo have pluses and minuses for my value system; Rebirth of Reason as well; TAS; ARI; likewise; I think Dr. Goode would be a great teacher to learn philosophy from, yet I would probably hold little of his evaluations. And I like many of you here. I take what I want from everyone, and I try to give my, albeit sometimes provocative, best in exchange.
But I can tell you that my honor and artistic integrity doesn't have anything to do with the clashes of others. 
Michael
This post applies to Olivia/Claudia as well.

 

 

www.michaelnewberry.com

What An Odd Line To Draw

Billy Beck's picture

"...amplified music doesn't appeal to me."

{blink} Is that what it is?

Seems pretty arbitrary to me.

Did anyone here ever listen to Chet Atkins?

Status Quo

Newberry's picture

Rosie:"I would like to defend Dr Goode again with regard to your assertion that "you don't trust a philosopher who is apparantly not versed in aesthetics." For myself, I would not trust anyone who makes such assertions when it is clear that he is in fact one of the few on this site who is indeed versed in modern and postmodern aesthetics!"
I am sure Dr. Goode knows what I am talking about. No offense, really.
You may not comprehend my aesthetic, but amplified music doesn't appeal to me. Recently I did a serious of charcoal drawings, charcoal was the exact same medium used by the cave painters 30,000 years ago. I find it amazing that I and artists can use this medium, in the similarway and yet find new expressions with it. It is part of a continuum of being human. My attitude towards both these things the unplugged and charcoal is something I have had since a teenager. Doing what everyone else is doing because they do it, as you suggest, has never interest me.
Be happy, don't worry that I won't join you in your quest to be part of the status quo.
Michael
www.michaelnewberry.com

Jim Reeves

Rosie Purchas's picture

I am sure that Jim Reeves figures on the Saturday evening National Programme. Any request would be very gratefully received by its aging, insomniac listeners (bless them).

"Roses are Red My Love, Violets are blue,
Sugar is sweet my love,
But not (dramatic pause) as sweet as you (chorus - as sweet as you)

A sharp contrast to Slayer's lyrics which brings me to the very beautiful Olivia's comments.

"Their lyrics are utterly boring, depressing and mindlessly macabre.... about as uplifting as a Eucharist administered in a morgue and nowhere near as original."

Is that yet another objective comment?! Actually, I think their lyrics are very interesting and thought provoking. Compare it to Jim Reeves above! Uplifting? Is this the point of all music? Music in this and the last century has been taken up by and delivered to a much wider audience. It is an amazing opportunity for insight into another's world view. And when the music can match the lyrics, I say fantastic. That is perfect.

"We have one very short life to live on this Earth."

I don't believe I just read that! Lol

"Why insist on taking pleasure in "art" that is stuck in the ignoble dungeons of glorifying death?"

Er...who said that?! Not me.
(a)I don't insist on anything except perhaps an open mind now and again..and a bath;
(b) Depends what you mean by pleasure. It is a pleasure to me to get to the bottom of what is meant by something - particularly if it is complex. Slayer is complex to me because it is a way of looking at the world that I do not naturally share. Ergo I want to understand it. Chaque homme a son gout, as the Germans say.
(c) As for glorifying death, I don't know enough of Slayer's songs to know whether that is what they do. Certainly not the ones I heard anyway. But if so, they would not be alone. Knockin on Heaven's Door for example is a poetic glorification of death. As is Bullet in the Head. In art, Charge of the Light Brigade, The Triumph of Death by Breughel the Elder and plenty of other paintings glorify death. Death's mystery is glorified in poetry, Death be not proud etc. In religion, it is glorified with tales of afterlife etc. In almost every culture, death is glorified by some means or another. What is the problem here?

"Seems a crying shame as well as a waste of consciousness."

I don't think it is at all! What do you suggest we do with Death? Ignore it perhaps? Let's not mention the war! To most, death's glorification is a comfort! But maybe you are meaning glorification in the sense of Jihad? That is a far more interesting and complex issue. But not what you are meaning given previous and later sentence. Pity!

"But that's up to you if you truly want to worship death."

??? Did I say that?!
Er...Chekhov makes a great statement about words that come from very beautiful women...

"What really pisses me off is that while the masses keep worshiping death, it forces the standard of art to stay appallingly low and dampens a culture down to the lowest possible common denominator. Nihilism."

I really couldn't agree with you that the masses 'worship' death. Who are the masses anyway? (I take it not Olivia!) I would have probably included myself in the masses but I don't keep "worshiping" death so does that mean I am not part of the masses or Olivia's basic premise is incorrect? Given what she goes on to say, I think I'll go with a mistake in the basic premise. The good news about this? I don't need to continue and Olivia doesn't need to be pissed off anymore. Lol

Michael

Mark Hubbard's picture

Just for the record, I initially attacked you in that other 'solidarity' thread, and viciously so, then partially retracted, as I was not sure whether you were a gifted artist, or just full of shit. This thread bears out you're most probably a gifted artist, who is yet, unfortunately, full of shit.

Hudgin's actions in the Linz invitation, and his retraction, was shameful and cowardly, and if you read back on the relevant threads, you will see that the sequence of events was exactly as Linz has stated (and as Olivia has verified).

If you'd had honour, and artistic integrity, you should have told Hudgin's where to stick that slot.

You didn't.

 

As to this thread, where does Jim Reeve's figure in all this? He was pretty good.

Gotta love that pomowanking logic

Lindsay Perigo's picture

In my last comment, I noted the striking similarities between Slayer's anti-religious lyrics and Linz's anti-religious diatribes. Then, Olivia tells us that Slayer's lyrics are "utterly boring, depressing and mindlessly macabre.... about as uplifting as a Eucharist administered in a morgue and nowhere near as original." Olivia seems to have missed the obvious implication. At least, I doubt she intended to imply that Linz's views on religion are likewise "utterly boring, depressing and mindlessly macabre [etc.]"

Which is why she didn't. I can usually manage a better standard of polemic than "God fuckin' hates me," and I don't replace God with something equally psychopathic and far more unmusical.

Given that they call themselves Objectivists and profess to hold Reason as their only absolute, it's ironic that logic and objectivity are not among most Objectivists' strong suites.

That's "suits," dear. "Suites" are a genre of orchestral music with which you would struggle.

Perhaps our logic would improve if you set a better example than your embarrassing Rossini syllogism, especially since you wouldn't know Rossini if he leapt out from your Foucault collection.

I'm not going to let this bullshit pass

Richard Goode's picture

In my last comment, I noted the striking similarities between Slayer's anti-religious lyrics and Linz's anti-religious diatribes.

Then, Olivia tells us that Slayer's lyrics are "utterly boring, depressing and mindlessly macabre.... about as uplifting as a Eucharist administered in a morgue and nowhere near as original."

Olivia seems to have missed the obvious implication. At least, I doubt she intended to imply that Linz's views on religion are likewise "utterly boring, depressing and mindlessly macabre [etc.]"

Given that they call themselves Objectivists and profess to hold Reason as their only absolute, it's ironic that logic and objectivity are not among most Objectivists' strong suites.

Olivia

Lindsay Perigo's picture

Just when I start to wonder if there's any decency at all left, someone like you posts and demonstrates in the affirmative. Thank you.

If one tenth of the energy that goes into justifying filth went into understanding and glorifying greatness, the world would be a million times better.

Michael...

Olivia's picture

I'm not going to let this bullshit pass either.

TAS enticed you to come over, you got all hot, yet opted to forgo foreplay niceties, and went for the plunge. TAS not properly prepared said "sorry dear, not tonight I have a headache."

That is a trite little dribbly sum-up of how the thing played out!
TAS invited Linz (as opposed to enticed him) and then totally bowed to overwhelming pressure of a malevolent and nasty kind, proving themselves to be simpering second-handers of the lowest order. Whatever justification you've had to make inside your own head to fill his shoes is fine, but make no mistake - they weaseled and wormed their way in the most despicable manner but fortunately in a very public domain. We got to see how they truly operate. How you can blank all that out beats me.

Rosie...

You do realise most people hated the Romantics when they first started playing? There is resistance to anything new. It is the nature of the conservative to resist.

The likes of Slayer are hardly new darling. Dear Lord! We've been hearing this kind of crap posing as "art" for at least 40 years and the culture hasn't resisted it, it's been well and truly embraced. Their lyrics are utterly boring, depressing and mindlessly macabre.... about as uplifting as a Eucharist administered in a morgue and nowhere near as original.

We have one very short life to live on this Earth. Why insist on taking pleasure in "art" that is stuck in the ignoble dungeons of glorifying death? Seems a crying shame as well as a waste of consciousness. But that's up to you if you truly want to worship death. What really pisses me off is that while the masses keep worshiping death, it forces the standard of art to stay appallingly low and dampens a culture down to the lowest possible common denominator. Nihilism.

Goode logic is good

Rosie Purchas's picture

* Linz says Slayer are filth.

* Lord Edgumbe said Rossini was loud and vulgar.

*"Loud and vulgar" is very similar to "filth." [????]

Why question that? The conclusion clearly is that neither you nor Lord Edgcumbe liked what you heard in this new music. In the 19th century “filth” would not be a word used to describe people or their music (much too rude). In the 21st century “loud and vulgar” is much too polite!

* Therefore Linz is wrong.

No, this point was not made. Merely that Linz is having the same reaction to Lord Edgcumbe re music that challenges a taste which is resistant to change. A view which I suspect was based on a decision made some years ago and has not been revisited with an open mind. Ergo Linz may benefit from a bit of mental spring cleaning - a clean wash of youthfulness in his approach rather than that old copper water he's been reliably using, and I say that in the nicest possible way, Possum.

Or try this:

* Linz is "behind the times."

* Therefore, Linz is wrong.

Again, this was not said. Dr Goode joked, try to keep up! Tongue in cheek. Why do you keep hearing conclusions that you are right or wrong I wonder? This is the second time you have perceived something said to conclude you “wrong” when it was not said. You have a racket going on in your head, methinks. A racket is when something happens and you give it meaning which doesn't exist. It starts when young and then happens so often that you just hear the meaning as soon as you get close to the “happening”. Once you can recognise the racket each time it happens you will eventually lose it.

* Slayer say "God fuckin' hates me."

* Linz says God would have to be a psychopath.

* Therefore Slayer's "music" is great.

I didn't get this conclusion at all. It certainly wasn't stated. What I got was that you are both saying the same things. And only if you think what you have said is great can you come to the next conclusion that Slayer is great.

It is your own logic that is at fault here as I see it, not Dr Goode's impeccable logic. And that, and only that, is where Linz is wrong!

Richard B. Goode...

Marcus's picture

"Slayer: God hates us all. He fuckin' hates me.

Perigo: God is a psychopath... [He] would prescribe a rather unpleasant demise for me... "

Even if this were true how does this explain your appreciation of their music? Is it just the text, rather than the music, that impresses you?

Is it a disappointment that you can't find similar lyrics set to the music of Andrew Llyod Webber, for example?

Post modern music

Rosie Purchas's picture

"I note that in your reply to Mr. Newberry you extol a "post-modern form of musical appreciation." There's no such thing, of course."

Are you denying (a)the substance of the expression, (b)the imprecise wording of the expression itself or (c)that anyone could appreciate post modern music?! If (b) or (c), I appreciate the humour - schoolboyishness is always appealing - if (a), (which was my point), I simply quote from Wikipedia criticism:
"The emergence of postmodern eclectic styles (of music)

"It was inevitable with the ingrown cynicism of much intellectual and emotionally sterile academic music of the second half of the twentieth century, that there would come a time when "popular music" eventually found as much if not more seriousness than so-called "serious" music. This is an outgrowth of the academic fascination with the way music looks upon the page, rather than what it sounds like. Arnold Schoenberg makes plain his own stance regarding the visual nature of western musical tradition when he spent quite a long time after the composition of the Gurrelieder avoiding music composition altogether, devoting himself to painting instead. It is little wonder the atonalists pride themselves more upon grace of line and oddness of tone in general, rather than plumbing the soul of nature for musical sounds as yet undiscovered. Thus the long arm of tradition remains long after many of these upstarts had their say, ivory tower and all. While much good has come out of the experiments of the atonalists and serialists, it is the artist steeped in the maintaining of a rich, western music tradition which will contribute to the eventual hope of the art's advancement. One of the most notable uses of modernistic experimentation has been to create a music so detached from common mores of communication, that it has been found useful in expressing such ideals as insanity, detachment, self-absoption and abject cynicism."

The last sentence particularly relevant to Slayer. The point is, of course, there is a post modern form in music. And it is appreciated.

I did not evade your question as to what Slayer are trying to say, I merely found it too imprecise to answer. There are so many songs and Slayer does not say the same thing in each. The song I enjoyed best, of the few I listened to, was Jihad; I believe you thought this was pro 9/11 - quite wrong, it is Slayer getting "inside the heads" of the mujahudeen and is representative only. And quite brilliant. The words of the song you have quoted I have not heard. At first glance I would say that it is very Revelations-oriented - second coming stuff - Lucifer vs God. The sky's crimson tears - metaphor for blood in rain and play on words of the last line reign in blood - war as predicted at the time of the second coming, abolishing the rules made of stone (the ten commandments as given to Moses ). Whichever the outcome - God or Lucifer - the "winner" reigns in blood. It is an attack on Christianity at its essence. My opinion just at a glance. Dr Goode may be better able to elaborate! I shall listen to the song when next with the prior (x2) Governor General! Perhaps following a Chopin waltz!

Goode "logic" is very bad

Lindsay Perigo's picture

* Linz says Slayer are filth.

* Lord Edgumbe said Rossini was loud and vulgar.

* "Loud and vulgar" is very similar to "filth." [????]

* Therefore Linz is wrong.

Or try this:

* Linz is "behind the times."

* Therefore, Linz is wrong.

See where a PhD in philosophy can get you?

It's a funny thing, pomowanker logic. But it's no goode.

Oh, just saw the goode Doctor's latest post. Another prize piece of logic:

* Slayer say "God fuckin' hates me."

* Linz says God would have to be a psychopath.

* Therefore Slayer's "music" is great.

Similitudes

Richard Goode's picture

Slayer: God hates us all. He fuckin' hates me.

Perigo: God is a psychopath... [He] would prescribe a rather unpleasant demise for me...

Slayer: Religion is hate. Religion is fear. Religion is war. Religion is rape. Religion's obscene.

Perigo: All religion is evil.

Slayer: Jesus is pain. Jesus is gore. Jesus is the blood That's spilled in war. He's everything. He's all things dead. He's pulling on the trigger Pointed at your head.

Perigo: What was wrong with Jesus was his anti-worldliness, his rejection of this life, this earth and the pursuit of happiness on it. His followers soaked it in blood in his name, and would do so again, given half a chance. Bloodshed is the inevitable result of any philosophy that is anti-this life, anti-mind and anti-happiness.

Slayer: Fucking Jesus Christ. I would've lead the sacrifice And nailed him to the crucifix.

Perigo: I would even more have wanted... To nail him, metaphorically and non-coercively. I'm sure he would have preferred that to what he got.

Aggressive noisiness

Richard Goode's picture

In his book Opera (1940), Professor Edward J Dent recounts that

"Lord Mount Edgecumbe (1764-1839), whose Reminiscences of the Opera (1825) is a valuable and interesting document for the history of musical taste in those days, found Rossini's music noisy and vulgar. He hated Rossini's battering ensembles and finales, and the perpetual crash of his trombones; well he might, for this aggressive noisiness was the vice of all the Italians in those days."

I submit that history repeats. Your dismissal of Slayer today is no different in kind from Edgecumbe's dismissal of Rossini two centuries ago. You even use the very same language to trumpet your musical conservatism!

So, yes, Linz, there is something wrong with you - you're behind the times!

Try to keep up.

Ms Purchas

Lindsay Perigo's picture

Are you telling me that you have pronounced your judgement without actually listening to it or reading the lyrics?!!
Surely not!

You've evaded my question: just what were Slayer trying to say, exactly?

And post a photo, please!

As it happens, and as explained on the RACH thread, since I couldn't make out the lyrics to Raining Blood from all that screaming, I googled them. As I said on that earlier occasion, to call them crap is unfair to crap. I look forward to your enlightening me as to their meaning:

Trapped in purgatory
A lifeless object, alive
Awaiting reprisal
Death will be their acquisition
The sky is turning red
Return to power draws near
Fall into me, the skys crimson tears
Abolish the rules made of stone
Pierced from below, souls of my treacherous past
Betrayed by many, now ornaments dripping above
Awaiting the hour of reprisal
Your time slips away
Raining blood
From a lacerated sky
Bleeding its horror
Creating my structure
Now I shall reign in blood!

I note that in your reply to Mr. Newberry you extol a "post-modern form of musical appreciation." There's no such thing, of course.

Mr Newberry

Rosie Purchas's picture

The carrot is surely to open your mind to a recent post-modern form of musical appreciation. To know that you are aware and appreciative of a generation's views outside your own. I am aware that you have no desire to do so and are "happy with your lot" but that is the first indication that you are becoming aged and preserved!! No insult - I am sure you are content with that also!

No punishment to me. It was a punishment to my integrity to close off to a new form which had to be representative of this age. You do realise most people hated the Romantics when they first started playing? There is resistance to anything new. It is the nature of the conservative to resist. Probably because it requires too much effort restructuring brain neurons - which may require listening to a piece several times to achieve. Lol

I would like to defend Dr Goode again with regard to your assertion that "you don't trust a philosopher who is apparantly not versed in aesthetics." For myself, I would not trust anyone who makes such assertions when it is clear that he is in fact one of the few on this site who is indeed versed in modern and postmodern aesthetics! Also, his grace exhibited by his charming response to Mr Perigo's article indicates that his view of aesthetics extends beyond the physical.

Mr Perigo

Rosie Purchas's picture

"The loud caterwauling was a perfect composition for what the musicians were trying to say"

"I'm sure it was. But what was that, exactly?"

Are you telling me that you have pronounced your judgement without actually listening to it or reading the lyrics?!!
Surely not!

"Wild horses couldn't drag me there. "

An occasion to sport leather, chains and maybe a safety pin should not be overlooked!

"And you Michael are

Newberry's picture

"And you Michael are evading."
What a funny thing to say.

 

 

www.michaelnewberry.com

Marcus again ...

Lindsay Perigo's picture

However, Ayn Rand as you say above, also failed to be able to do this. We can tell this from what music she strongly disliked, such as Beethoven, Strauss and Elvis.

I can't begin to fathom some of her statements about music, especially on Beethoven. "Malevolent universe" music? Complete dribble!

I'm tempted to the view, regarding her claiming the impossibility of objective judgement, "Well, she would say that, wouldn't she?!" Smiling

Yet read her description of Halley's Concerto of Deliverance. That's a description of a Romantic concerto. Would she seriously argue it wouldn't, if it existed, be superior to Slayer, by dint of precisely the things she mentions in that description?!

Rosie

Lindsay Perigo's picture

The loud caterwauling was a perfect composition for what the musicians were trying to say

I'm sure it was. But what was that, exactly?

- they did it well and the drummer was particularly talented. My thanks to Dr Goode for opening up a new realm of possibility and appreciation. I may even attend the next concert. Perhaps Mr Perigo, Newberry et al may join me.

Wild horses couldn't drag me there. Smiling

Marcus

Lindsay Perigo's picture

I think you put your finger on the reason why people do consume the methylated spirits of music above when you wrote: "So, is it anger, etc., that makes Dr. Goode feel glad to be alive, that gives him his value-swoons?" In other words, Richard doesn't appreciate Slayer objectively as music, but as something else, as a boxing match, mud bath or hysterical fit, something like that.

Perhaps he should join a fight club. Though I am struggling to see him as Brad Pitt. Smiling

There's another reason for it too. Lack of good musical education or motivation to educate oneself about it. There is an old saying that "if you force feed people enough bullshit, they will start to enjoy the taste." How could it be any different? The music and art that permeates our culture today exactly matches the philosophical temper of our times, something not even objecitvists are fully immune too.

That's what I meant by eating shit and militantly revelling in it. You'll have noticed how uppity folk get when it's called shit. Easier to stay in the sewer I guess. But aren't Objectivists supposed to embody the total passion for the total height? When does "And I mean it" kick in?!

And you Michael ...

Lindsay Perigo's picture

... are evading. I will leave it at that.

 Lindsay you are an adult.

Newberry's picture

 Lindsay you are an adult. I will leave it at that.

 

www.michaelnewberry.com

Michael ...

Lindsay Perigo's picture

TAS enticed you to come over, you got all hot, yet opted to forgo foreplay niceties, and went for the plunge. TAS not properly prepared said "sorry dear, not tonight I have a headache." Which left you with nothing but a bone in hand. Hence blueballed.

I'm sorry Michael, but I'm not going to let that bullshit pass. It was your friends who got all hot at the mere fact I had been invited and waged an hysterical campaign to get me dumped. Any heat on my part was retaliatory, in the wake of being likened to Arafat, Hitler, et al, and the vicious lies repeated by Barbara Branden. Hudgins capitulated to this mob, and reneged. Dishonourable and cowardly. And guess who couldn't wait to step into the breach?! Well, knock yourself out. I'm afraid your recent demand for online solidarity rings hollow with me. Rand and Roark had nothing on you, you said? Well, they were loyal to the good.

Rosie,   Let me get

Newberry's picture

Rosie,

 

Let me get this right: amplified music, steam of consciousness, floating abstractions, and Richards taste; okay that is the stick. Now inspire me with a carrot. Please...hahahahah, and on a thought, why would you want to have me there? Really I have been a good person, and proudly assert that I don't belong in Dante's Hell, really.

Now, let's turn this around, what have you done that requires you to experience this kind of punishment? Have you been a bad girl? Maybe a Catholic upbringing? Which even requires you to enjoy your punishment?

 

www.michaelnewberry.com

Nope,I still mean

Newberry's picture

Nope,I still mean blueballed. Smiling TAS enticed you to come over, you got all hot, yet opted to forgo foreplay niceties, and went for the plunge. TAS not properly prepared said "sorry dear, not tonight I have a headache." Which left you with nothing but a bone in hand. Hence blueballed.

Michael

 

 

www.michaelnewberry.com

Here's my take.

Marcus's picture

"I told you, generically, about the standard pop tune from that time."

In general the problem is an inability to be able to objectify music as you have just done yourself in the case of Elvis.

However, Ayn Rand as you say above, also failed to be able to do this. We can tell this from what music she strongly disliked, such as Beethoven, Strauss and Elvis.

However, that is not an excuse for liking crap music, anymore than not being able to objectify good wine is a good reason to drink methylated spirits.

I think you put your finger on the reason why people do consume the methylated spirits of music above when you wrote: "So, is it anger, etc., that makes Dr. Goode feel glad to be alive, that gives him his value-swoons?" In other words, Richard doesn't appreciate Slayer objectively as music, but as something else, as a boxing match, mud bath or hysterical fit, something like that. That's probably what Rosie discovered as well, that "new realm of possibility and appreciation".

There's another reason for it too.

Lack of good musical education or motivation to educate oneself about it. There is an old saying that "if you force feed people enough bullshit, they will start to enjoy the taste." How could it be any different? The music and art that permeates our culture today exactly matches the philosophical temper of our times, something not even objecitvists are fully immune too.

A Goode Defence

Rosie Purchas's picture

I had chance (and cause) to listen to Slayer for the first time the other night. Brought up on a diet of classical music and opera, I thought I would step outside my comfortable hot chocolate (I am sure some would prefer to say wine and good wine at that) music zone and take note. I was delighted to discover how much I enjoyed it. I say delighted for the following reason. Just as I recall reading Virginia Woolf's stream of consciousness for the first time and finding it difficult to understand then a few years later having no difficulty at all with it, followed by similar experiences with various abstract artists, so I consider my musical development stunted or trapped until I can appreciate the latest forms. The loud caterwauling was a perfect composition for what the musicians were trying to say - they did it well and the drummer was particularly talented. My thanks to Dr Goode for opening up a new realm of possibility and appreciation. I may even attend the next concert. Perhaps Mr Perigo, Newberry et al may join me.

Oh Jesus!

Lindsay Perigo's picture

I told you, generically, about the standard pop tune from that time. Let's take just one among thousands that comes to mind straight off the bat: Elvis' Can't Help Falling in Love.

Good voice.

Audible delivery of lyrics.

Value-orientation: the object of his affections.

Nice toon, standard diatonic scale: Tonic (Wise) - fifth (men) - tonic (say), second (on) - third (ly) - fourth (fools) - third (rush) - second (in)

Fifth (but) - sixth (I) - seventh (can't) - tonic (help)

Second (fall) - third (ing) - fourth (in) - third (love) - second (with) - tonic (you).

Repeat with different words, followed by a deviation: "Like a river flows," etc..

Then back to the theme toon.

A-B-A sonata form.

Sorry to be impatient, but at some point you guys must start working this stuff out for yourself. And it's a distraction from the main point of my article.

"Why are we even discussing it?"

Marcus's picture

I am trying to work out where you have found “mini-Romanticism” in pre-80's pop. Because you specified pre-80's, I am assuming you are thinking that there must be something in that category during the 70's. This Rach rip-off was from the 70's for example.

Please give some examples.

Oh!

Lindsay Perigo's picture

That's "All by myself" with the (very bad) Rach rip-off. Pretty hideous all round. Why are we even discussing it?

Yes the vocals are quite ropey...

Marcus's picture

...but fast forward three minutes in, to the piano solo, and I think you will know what I mean.

Yes, I thought that quip about 20th century music was a joke. I just thought that I would jog your memory Smiling

Marcus

Lindsay Perigo's picture

You've changed your mind to a certain extent. I remember when you used to say that all good music was pre-20th century.

That was just one of my bons mots. What are you, an American?? Smiling *Of course* I love music from the twentieth century. How about Puccini, Rach, and Mario Lanza's Sigmund Romberg for starters??!!

I clicked on that video but stopped it straight away. The vocal was hideous.

Linz...

Marcus's picture

"This superiority can also be ascribed, I should add, to the myriad forms of what one might call “mini-Romanticism” such as operetta, musical comedy, jazz (the intelligible kind), pre-80s pop, movie scores, Ayn Rand’s “tiddly-wink music” and so on."

You've changed your mind to a certain extent. I remember when you used to say that all good music was pre-20th century.

The "pre-80's pop" is quite ironic, because there was a pop movement in the UK during the early eighties who called themselves "the new romantics".

From Wikipedia,

"New Romantic was a fashion and music movement that occurred primarily in the United Kingdom during the early 1980s.

Typical musical and stylistic proponents of the New Romantic movement were Spandau Ballet, Visage, Japan, Ultravox, Landscape, Adam & The Ants, Culture Club, and Duran Duran, especially during the period from mid-1979 to mid-1983.Others include (to some extent) Simple Minds, A Flock of Seagulls, Kajagoogoo, Classix Nouveaux, Naked Eyes, ABC, Yazoo, Eurythmics, Soft Cell, Talk Talk, Associates, The Fixx, China Crisis as well as several others."

But for pre-1980's music, I would think you might mean this, and you probably can guess why from the music.

This is the 7 minute full-length version (no interesting video: sorry):

Black balls, blue balls ... and *having* balls

Lindsay Perigo's picture

You don't mean that. It's blueballed you mean.

I mean "blackballed":

To blackball—

1. To vote against, especially to veto the admission of.
2. To shut out from social or commercial participation; ostracize or boycott.

That's what your friends did, in the time-honoured ARI tradition, only they're not the ARI, they're the "tolerationists." Yeah, right.

I figure they must have also blueballed those who lack the erectile fortitude to call them on the blackballing.

Still, this presentation will be made one day, to folk worthy of it. I see it as my most important contribution to halting the descent of the barbarian curtain. I don't flatter or delude myself that my efforts are at all noted, but this one truly ought to be.

And it will be part of Total Passion for the Total Height which, finally, is nearing publication.

"Of course, my TAS

Newberry's picture

"Of course, my TAS presentation would have been littered with clips..."

 I guessed that. I just imagined how graphically clear both pro and con the presentation can be online, and that by the audience taking the time to both read and listen, how that can really sink in. 

 "...but your friends, need I remind you, got me blackballed."

You don't mean that. It's blueballed you mean.  

 

 

www.michaelnewberry.com

Yes, reverence ...

Lindsay Perigo's picture

The leitmotif of my article. The act of revering, and being worthy of reverence. Compared to this god-awful plague of nihilism. And fuckwits who can't even tell, or don't care.

Michael

Lindsay Perigo's picture

One addition I would like to see to this presentation is the inclusion of musical sound bites, for example youtube feeds, that will further persuade such lazy bones as Robert!

I have gone back and turned the Van Cliburn Tchaik/Beethoven references into links (they were already on SOLO anyway!). When there's some comment on those, I'll add others to this thread.

Of course, my TAS presentation would have been littered with clips, but your friends, need I remind you, got me blackballed.

Our passion for good wins out at the last.

Newberry's picture


How this delights me: this will and this promise
Of yours for my country!
The eyes of Persuasion–how I adore them
For watching over my lips and my tongue
When pitted against your so wild opposition...
Our passion for good
Wins out at the last.

Aeschylus, The Eumenides 458 B.C.

This passage is spoken by Athena addressing the Furies after they have lost their case, the first trial by a jury of peers. She hopes that aside from winning the case that she can persuade the stubborn Furies to leave off their evil, horrid ways, and learn to embrace a benevolent, value-orientated existence.

Lindsay you did an outstanding job.

One addition I would like to see to this presentation is the inclusion of musical sound bites, for example youtube feeds, that will further persuade such lazy bones as Robert!

And I think you were too good to Goode. In the case of art appreciation I think it is bad to be Goode, I don’t trust a philosopher apparently not versed in aesthetics.

Michael

 

 

www.michaelnewberry.com

Music, sex and reverence

Olivia's picture

The emotion that always pulls me toward classical music more than any other type is reverence – and it is reverence that is missing in the music of nihilists. They value nothing and the trouble with those who value nothing is that there is no self to be expressed, be it music, art or even sex.

I assume that what the objector and I seek from music is the same thing: what I call value-swoon: “This is life as I see it”—in my case, in the form of a spiritual orgasm born of orgiastic love-making between me, the artist, the composer and life itself.

I know exactly what’s meant here and I’m glad sex was used as the metaphor. There is a cross-over between art and sexual intimacy. Again, the quintessential component is a sense of reverence (which in this day and age has become so damn “uncool” to ever express). Nihilists treat sex as a “nothing” – just another appetite to be quelled. An empty act. They’re the classic “it doesn’t mean anything” fuckers. In short, nihilists are lousy lays, robotic romantic partners and awful artists.

This lack of reverence is EVERYWHERE. It really bothers me.
I recently saw that doco/show where the young Choir Master takes these wayward teens and teaches them how to sing classically. They end up going to the Choir Olympics in Beijing and although they get nowhere in the competition, they were all on a high because for the first time in their lives these nihilistic nobodies were singing uplifting, beautiful, classical songs TOGETHER in a choir and the doors to the world of classical music suddenly opened up to them. They really felt like they'd achieved something. The self-conscious must-be-cool-at-all-costs melted away to nothing. It made me cry to watch them get turned on to it like that.

Tim

Lindsay Perigo's picture

'Value-swoon: Tears of joy, poignance, worship, “unclouded exaltation” in the presence of gods and the godly, of beauty inexpressible in words. That's too uncool for most at the moment unfortunately.'

That's my greatest horror. Steven Mallory's "drooling beast."

Robert ...

Lindsay Perigo's picture

... by what standard do you evaluate two pieces of equally life-affirming music: Louis Armstrong's Jazz vs. Beethoven for instance?

Whichever I enjoy more, while enjoying both! Smiling Remember, the purpose of the debate, at least for me, is not to be able to say, "My tastes are superior to yours, naa-nee-naa-nee-naaa-naaa." It's to answer those who, motivated by death-and-ugliness-worship, invoke that statement of Rand's to justify their ignoble filth and put it on a par with that which is noble: all music is created equal.

I like Louis, and I'd put him in that "mini-Romanticism" category even though he's from a different tradition, but I don't repair to him for my ultimate value-swoon.

But to participate I'd need a definition of the fundamental concepts that were to be addressed. Linz you speak of tone and musical integration and I only have an inkling about what you are talking about. You state in this essay (which is excellent and right on the money BTW) that the internet is replete with academic style lectures on the fundamentals and yet the reader is left wondering where they are.

Oh, just google "Romantic music" and all manner of stuff will show up. An old-fashioned hard-copy book I find useful is "The Lives of the Great Composers" by Harold C. Schonberg. Not sure if it's still available.

Then there is the issue with the fact that I hate reading dry academic prose (which sucks because that is a requirement of my job.) I can't get enthusiastic about a topic that sent the author into a catatonic state. Is there any musical equivalent of PJ O'Rourke?

Only me, dear. Smiling

All that has been established so far in the Rach debates is that according to the expert eye-witnesses Steppenwolf is better than Peter Frampton. In other words fully formed stool is much more desirable than runny stool.

Well, I have established that food is better than stool, runny or solid, to my own satisfaction at least, and that the classifications are objectively valid, and I don't rely on "expert eye-witnesses."

As to the points in your other post about poseurs—yes, they exist and they're a turn-off. But just because there are pseuds who pretend to like great music you can't conclude that the great music doesn't exist or isn't great.

Somehow, Goode ...

Lindsay Perigo's picture

I knew you'd enjoy it.

Generosity of spirit can redeem much. Even Slayer-worship, perhaps.

Perhaps.

Smiling

Classic Perigo

Richard Goode's picture

I may not know much - or care to know much - about Romantic music, but I know what I like. And what I like includes music by thrash metal band Slayer. Call me a Philistine.

But I do know - and care to know - my Perigo. And this post is Perigo at his finest. As Slayer's most recent offering, the Christ Illusion album, demonstrates in the case of Slayer, so this post demonstrates in the case of Perigo - both have been at it for decades, but both are still at the top of their respective games.

Turner Prize 2001

gregster's picture

"(Martin) Creed's creative motivation is spectacularly visualised in his neon sign, Work # 232: the whole world + the work = the whole world. Displayed on the façade of Tate Britain in 2000, the specific context lent by the gallery served to advocate the interpretation that art is inextricably part of life.

At the same time, however, the equation could imply the redundancy of artistic enterprise, and particularly Creed's, in leaving no impression upon the world. Both sentiments are readily embraced by Creed in making his work, but it is the economy of means symbolised by this equation that he strives to adopt, a goal that is realised when a work is achieved as a result of doing nothing at all."

".. his work often pushes the boundaries of Conceptual Art to their limits" Translates to: the least possible talent, effort, and meaning.

Geez Linz, now I'll enjoy less my Einsturzende Neubauten. http://youtube.com/watch?v=w2G...

Value-swoon :-)

Tim S's picture

Linz

Thanks for this uplifting piece. So true!

Value-swoon: Tears of joy, poignance, worship, “unclouded exaltation” in the presence of gods and the godly, of beauty inexpressible in words.

That's too uncool for most at the moment unfortunately. They don't know what they are missing!

Robert's question...

mvardoulis's picture

..."by what standard do you evaluate two pieces of equally life-affirming music: Louis Armstrong's Jazz vs. Beethoven for instance?" ... represents the differentiation between 'headbanging' and other forms of traditional and life-affirming music apart from classical such as jazz and blues I was trying to make in the earlier thread.

Otherwise, I too, enjoyed your post.
Smiling

Well done

Newberry's picture

Well done Lindsay.

 

 

www.michaelnewberry.com

Right,

Robert's picture

Now I've got that little rant off my chest let me elaborate.

The problem I have with this and previous editions of the 'caterwalling' vs 'classical' debate is that after the shooting the philosophical fish in the barrel (death metal is anti-life... well du-uh!) the debate goes no further.

By the time the dust has settled no one has the energy left to discuss the really difficult debate: by what standard do you evaluate two pieces of equally life-affirming music: Louis Armstrong's Jazz vs. Beethoven for instance?

But to participate I'd need a definition of the fundamental concepts that were to be addressed. Linz you speak of tone and musical integration and I only have an inkling about what you are talking about. You state in this essay (which is excellent and right on the money BTW) that the internet is replete with academic style lectures on the fundamentals and yet the reader is left wondering where they are.

Then there is the issue with the fact that I hate reading dry academic prose (which sucks because that is a requirement of my job.) I can't get enthusiastic about a topic that sent the author into a catatonic state. Is there any musical equivalent of PJ O'Rourke?

This isn't a demand for the information, merely a polite request.

I know that you are onto something, but I desire to be armed with the tools I need to evaluate these things independently and the Rach debate isn't providing it. Moreover, you've just suggested that Rand isn't the place to look either.

All that has been established so far in the Rach debates is that according to the expert eye-witnesses Steppenwolf is better than Peter Frampton. In other words fully formed stool is much more desirable than runny stool.

Romantic Music etc.

Robert's picture

A couple of observations from a disinterested bystander to the Rach debate.

(1) I'm forever incredulous at those who hype music style 'X' over music style 'Y' because the latter is 'mass produced' 'overly commercial' etc.

Um, isn't the whole reason that Slayer, Steppenwolf and the various American Idols got into the business was to make money? Unless I miss my guess, that's why they tour and permit their images to be imprinted on the many thousands of plastic disks (LP, CD, DVD, Blu Ray etc.) that get sold each year.

From a purely selfish perspective, I'm glad these idiots are in the music industry. It makes it easier for me to ignore them.

Were they not making 'music' they might be bringing their singular talents for making dissonant crap to the food or building industry... Were that the case, instead of sore ears you might instead suffer a dose of the trots or a headache from being struck by falling masonry.

(2) On the other hand, at least these 'musicians' make their money by voluntary trade.

I agree with you that the Romantic music you describe is fantastic.

But a significant number of its defenders are the worst sort of grasping second-handed bludgers imaginable. The unholy alliance between the 'Arts' and big government cultural hand-outs is an outrage. If classical music is so good, why are people forced to support it?

I also agree with your observation about how modern music pollutes the hearing scape of modern cities. But is this not just an example of how modern music fans are taking a leaf out of the classical music fan's play book? Namely force your product onto the unsuspecting punter and fuck the ethical considerations?

(3) Lastly, both sides are replete with poseurs who - like Riggenbach does when defending James Joyce - revel in intellectual snobbery: "You haven't the breeding/intelligence/education/life experience to understand this music so shut up and let the adults talk"

Or in other words: "To those who understand no explanation is necessary, to those who do not, no explanation is possible." And this last observation is the reason why I don't give a shit about the Rach debate or the debate about 'great literature' that JRR and JV are having.

“Music is our food of the spirit."

Marcus's picture

Linz,

There was something on TV last weekend here in the UK that should get your juices flowing and restore your faith in humanity. It certainly did for me Smiling

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