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Me vs. DentistSubmitted by Matty Orchard on Wed, 2008-08-20 09:30.
Something in the vein of Scott DeSalvo's post about his car. I've got a dilemma I was hoping I could get your opinions on ... I've had a tooth-ache over the past couple of days so I booked an appointment with a local dentist. I go in and he's quite a nice guy but during the whole process I manage to really piss him off. I was apologetic at the time but now I'm thinking about it I'm beginning to wonder if he wasn't the one being the prick. There might be some kind of etiquette I'm unaware of so I wanted to run this by all of you and you can tell me what you think. It turns out I have some kind of root problem, so after some x-rays he tells me I'm looking at about three visits. These visits could add up to 1200 dollars' worth of work by the end, I gulp. Not only is $1200 quite a lot but I pretty much have to take an entire day off work for each visit. I'm visibly shaken by the price but all in all I keep my composure and accept that I am just going to have to deal with it if it does end up costing $1200. Not expensive enough to put me on the street I guess. Anyway, he explains to me that he'll do the bulk of the work today, and that this procedure should get rid of the pain after two days if all goes according to plan. Then the other two visits or so will be in weekly intervals just to remove some of the gunk under my teeth or whatever is going on. The gist of it as far as I can tell is that the other two steps aren't something that need to be done straight away. The main problem is being solved today for about $670 (I can easily manage that—I've been a good saver ) so I ask him in a very polite, adult manner if we're in a situation where I would be able to get the more important and urgent work done now but then get the 'clean-up' phase done in New Zealand in December at a cheaper rate. He throws one of his dentist tool thingies on the little table next to me and asks if I want him to do this or not. I'm a bit taken aback. I say I'm sorry if I offended him (apologetic tone and all) and I wasn't trying to insult him in any way; I was just wondering if that would be a safe option. My thoughts are that If it's important to my well-being to get this done on a certain schedule then so be it, but if not...well, flag it (didn't word it this way of course). His basic response is 'no promises,' but he's in such a huff I don't even know what he means by that. He says something about, 'It could split in two for all I know,' which doesn't sound like a truly valid possibility so I don't really end up getting a good answer to my question. I drop it, saying I'm sorry (I was at the time too) and he goes to work on me. He's basically pleasant throughout the next 40-60 mins. Then when it's over and he's discussing what he's done so far and what we can do from here he takes the angry tone on again and tells me that he was really insulted by my question. I'm very po-faced and apologetic, I didn't mean anything by it. He says I can get the other things done by another dentist if I really want but he'll charge me for the other two surgeries anyway because it's not fair and I hurt his feelings (didn't use the words 'not fair' or 'hurt feelings' but that was the implication). He's dead serious about it too. He tells me that it's like getting someone to do a surgery and then getting another guy to do the stitches (he used the word 'getting' not 'paying' which I think makes a difference) and that once he starts it's his 'baby' (my mouth though, right?). Once again I say, 'OK, really sorry, didn't mean anything, happy to get them done with you.' And once again I mean every word of it. I'm very ashamed of myself. As I'm walking home though I begin to think that maybe he's the bastard in all of this. I mean, I paid for the check-up, the x-rays and the surgery he's done thus far. I assume that advice on what my options are is part of the package and if he's offended with any of my proposals perhaps he should keep it to his good self. And he CERTAINLY doesn't have the right to hold me ransom by making me pay for surgeries he doesn't do. The more I think about it the more I think that perhaps I should go to someone else on principle. Am I missing something? Was it a rude question?
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Sent
Well, this is what will appear on his inbox, slightly edited, stillstrongly worded but I've removed what I think could be viewed as smarmy or threatening:
Dr. XXXX,
This is Matthew Orchard, the guy you worked on this Wednesday. It has probably come to your attention that I have cancelled my next appointment. If my feelings expressed over the phone have been passed on to you, you may also know that the main reason for this is due to my displeasure (in hindsight) with the way I was spoken to during my paid visit. I’m writing in so as that we are perfectly clear on why I will not be returning.
During my visit I asked something that offended you and I apologized profusely. Now that I’m out of pain and in a clearer state of mind I wish to take back those apologies.
Before the operation I asked in a very polite manner if the two follow up steps could be postponed until December so as that I could get them done in NZ at a (likely) cheaper price, at a point where I would have more money saved in the bank. My tone and wording could not have been more civil and it was a more than fair question. If this was a situation where the follow up treatments would have to be performed on a certain schedule in the interest of my well being then I would be more than happy to pay you up to $1200 over the next two weeks. All I wanted was a sober explanation of what my options were and how safe each option was. You gave me no such thing, sir.
After I asked my question you snapped at me, angrily dropped one of your tools on the table and asked me whether I wanted this done or not. I wanted you to stop my tooth ache; I believe that much was made clear. I also wanted to stop my tooth ache from coming back, preferably in an inexpensive manner but only if possible. Your responses were hot headed and childish, ‘No promises, it could split in two for all I know etc.’ In the context of your temper these were nothing close to comprehensive answers and you left me in a position where I could not make an informed decision about what to do next.
This alone was bad enough. I have a right to know exactly where I stand and what my options are, you denied me this right. I probably would have shrugged this behavior off and put it down to a bad day if it weren’t for your encore act of indignation following the surgery. After the procedure you told me that I could have the other operations preformed by another dentist but it would be ill advised not because it would be risky for my well being but because it would be financially redundant…seeing as you would charge me for the following operations you had planned, but didn’t do, anyway. You would do this out of spite, hurt feelings or god knows what. This proposition was completely unprofessional and to perfectly honest, obnoxious.
You have no right to make me pay for surgeries you don’t perform just because I choose an option that you deem to be unfair. You must know this and your acting as if you do have such a right in order to get me to sign up for two more visits and another 500 plus dollars at very least borderlines on extortion. I see no reason to be polite about this.
I will not be putting the other procedures off until December as I don’t want to end up suffering from my tooth again. I will however be looking for another dentist. On principle I can’t justify rewarding your unprofessional behavior with repeat business.
Regards,
Matt.
Threats
To be clear I was never trying to issue a threat in any way. I was just trying to point out that his behavior was entering in to risky territory. I do however understand that it could be perceived as threatening so I removed the last paragraph.
Matty
Matty, I love the letter. No need to issues threats, I don't think. If it comes to that it comes to that. The dentist's behavior was an injustice and you do an excellent job of pointing that out to him.
Practically speaking, your letter is likely to make him think twice before again taking out his low self-esteem on a vulnerable client.
Benifit?
It should benifit 3 parties. Matty should get a written apologie. The dentist will learn to be more careful and will review his position hopefully with a more accurate perspective. The next patient hopefully will not be treated like Matty.
I would not have threatened to take the matter further personally. I don't make legal threats unless I am prepared to follow through - which in this case I wouldn't be.
A) It takes 6 years to be dentist
B) Plus extensive clinical experience
C) He could be just having a crap day for all we know.
Call me a softy but I would think it to be 'over kill' to even suggest taking this matter further at this point.
My way of tackling the issue would be:
-Give the guy adeqaute time to respond.
-If he works for a practise and in the un-likely event you don't get a response, then take it up with his boss.
-Still no luck then perhaps (I would reluctantly) take it further.
Great letter Matty and good on you for doing it.
I am of the opinion that health professionals (no matter how bad some can be) generally DO CARE and DO want to do a good job. I would be surprised if you don't hear back from him.
No one really...
Just letting him know that I'm not coming back simply because of the money issue. He should know how I feel about the way I was treated.
Matty - Who is the letter
Matty -
Who is the letter supposed to benefit?
How?
Yes
I think your right lance I might take out the cheek. Still thinking.
Cheers Sandi, will clean that up.
UPDATE: I'm going to remove the extortion part at the end. The point was to let him know that despite my hippie like appearance I am aware of a possible precedent on which I could claim something illegal was done. No need to risk coming off as threatening seeing as I already made that point by using the word 'extortion' earlier on.
All the other stuff I'm still mulling over. As I said, I don't see any good reason to be polite, he wouldn't have treated and older person like this. But maybe it's better for me to just be completely straight on this one rather than come off as frothy at the mouth...
I think he will take note of the time it took you to write this.
Great letter - you might wish to edit this last piece.
"so I don’t really feels (feel) as if I owe you any favors. It’s called business. However (comma) (Omit "It is") because of your good work (comma) (omit "that")I have decided to not follow up my musings on (spell weather as whether) or not you (your) behavior on Wednesday (comma) merely (boarder - border)lined or fell right in to the legal territory of extortion."
"Who is John Galt?"
For the record, your work so
For the record, your work so far has been excellent, I’m completely out of pain and I would thank you for this, however I did pay you over 600 dollars so I don’t really feels as if I owe you any favors. It’s called business. It is however because of your good work that I have decided to not follow up my musings on weather or not you behavior on Wednesday merely boarder lined or fell right in to the legal territory of extortion.
As you may have noticed I’m a bit of a softy like that,
Not that he doesn't deserve it, but this is bordering on the bloody cheeky. The vague threat implied here (which for the record, made me smile) may be all that he takes away from the email. It depends upon what you are trying to achieve...
Thanks fo the suppot Sandi, Kasper, Mark and John.
I don't know what a schmuck like me would do without you guys
Here's my email, any thoughts before I send it?
Dr. xxxxx,
Hello, this is Matthew Orchard, the guy you worked on this Wednesday. It has probably come to your attention that I have canceled my next appointment. If my feelings expressed over the phone have been passed on to you, you may also know that the main reason for this is due to my displeasure (in hindsight) with the way I was spoken to during my paid visit. I’m writing in so as that we are perfectly clear on why I will not be returning.
During my visit I asked something that offended you and I apologized profusely. Now that I’m out of pain and in a more clear state of mind I wish to take back those apologies.
Before the operation I asked in a very polite manner if the two follow up steps could be postponed until December so as that I could get them done in NZ at a (likely) cheaper price, at a point where I would have more money saved in the bank. My tone and wording could not have been more civil and it was a more than fair question. If this was a situation where the follow up treatments would have to be preformed on a certain schedule in the interest of my well being then I would be more than happy to pay you up to $1200 over the next two weeks. All I wanted was a sober explanation of what my options were and how safe each option was. You gave me no such thing, sir.
After I asked my question you snapped at me, angrily dropped one of your tools on the table and asked me weather I wanted this done or not. I wanted you to stop my tooth ache; I believe that much was made clear. I also wanted to stop my tooth ache from coming back, preferably in an inexpensive manner but only if possible. Your responses were hot headed and childish, ‘No promises, it could split in two for all I know etc.’ In the context of your temper these were nothing close to comprehensive answers and you left me in a position where I could not make an informed decision about what to do next.
This alone was bad enough. I have a right to know exactly where I stand and what my options are, you denied me this right. I probably would have shrugged this boorish behavior off and put it down to a bad day if it weren’t for your encore act of indignation following the surgery. After the procedure you told me that I could have the other operations preformed by another dentist but it would be ill advised not because it would be risky for my well being but because it would be financially redundant…seeing as you would charge me for the following operations you had planned but didn’t do. You would do this out of spite, hurt feelings or god knows what. This proposition was almost as unprofessional as it was brazenly obnoxious, or perhaps almost as brazenly obnoxious as it was unprofessional. I’m finding it very hard to make up my mind, it’s tight.
You have no right to make me pay for surgeries you don’t perform just because I choose an option that you deem to be unfair. You must know this and your acting as if you do in order to get me to sign up for two more visits and another 500 plus dollars at very least borderlines on extortion. I see no reason to be polite about this.
As far as I know my choosing to opt out of the follow up appointments puts me at risk of suffering more pain in the future and having to pay even more money over all than if I had sucked it up and visited you again. It’s a risk I’m willing to take. As a matter of fact it’s a risk I feel morally obligated to take. On principle I simply can’t justify rewarding you for your crass, manipulative behavior with repeat business.
For the record, your work so far has been excellent, I’m completely out of pain and I would thank you for this, however I did pay you over 600 dollars so I don’t really feels as if I owe you any favors. It’s called business. It is however because of your good work that I have decided to not follow up my musings on weather or not you behavior on Wednesday merely boarder lined or fell right in to the legal territory of extortion.
As you may have noticed I’m a bit of a softy like that,
Regards,
Matt.
Matty
Your situation is like that of calling a taxi to travel across state. The taxi driver is delighted to receive the business and punches the air with glee as he starts the engine to drive you there. However, this does not automatically give him a contract for a (return fare/back load). If the complete round trip was not part of the deal nor raised as an issue within the deal, then what happens next is NOT your concern.
He (the taxi driver and dentist) INITIATED and ACCEPTED the first part of your fare, now Matty show us where you signed on the dotted line for the return journey, the complete round trip so to speak?
Get another dentist Matty, his attitude sounds like that of a plumber or a tradesman holding a little old woman to ransom over her pilot light being extinguished.
"Who is John Galt?"
Update
Appointment canceled. Sour email being drafted.
This dentist... his last
This dentist... his last name wasn't Hatzis was it?
This guy's brother
Matty
Your situation is certainly cause for concern.
Your rights under the code of health and disability consumer rights act 1996 have been violated. I would write a very serious unapologetic letter which demands an apology and politely tells the prick to pull his head out of his arse.
1)You have the right to be treated with respect.
2)You have the right to make an informed choice. This means what treatment, how treatment, extent of treatment and also to know what the advantages and disadvantages are of each treatment. Other wise it would not be informed.
3) Service should be delivered respecting your right to dignity and independence. Clearly not done here.
4) Right Six:
You should always receive the following information:
* an explanation of your condition
* your options, including the expected risks, side effects, benefits and costs
* an estimate of when you will receive a service
* advice of any possible involvement in teaching or research
* the results of tests or procedures
* the information you need to make a decision.
* you should be given honest answers to your questions relating to services. This includes questions about:
o the identity or qualifications of a provider
o your provider’s recommendations
o how to get another opinion
o results of research which you were involved in.
* You have a right to request and receive a written summary of information.
5) The right to complain and be taken seriously
* You may make a complaint in any form appropriate to you.
* You should be kept informed about the progress and outcome of your complaint.
* You should be advised of the availability of advocates and the Health and Disability Commissioner to assist with your complaint.
* You should not be adversely affected by complaining.
Matty you wrote: Once again
Matty you wrote: Once again I say, 'OK, really sorry, didn't mean anything, happy to get them done with you.' And once again I mean every word of it. I'm very ashamed of myself.
There's the heart of the matter. You already know what to do about it. Whether by letter or, better yet in person and within earshot of his waiting area (preferably when its full), take back the apology and demand an apology from him for his crass, unprofessional behavior. Then walk out with your head held high to the resounding applause of everyone
Ha ha! ...I had been
Ha ha! ...I had been thinking earlier of making a similarly amusing comment
On election day...tick the LIBERTARIANZ box...
Twink
For most people twink is correction fluid. For Elijah I think it is the guy that cleans his pool.
What is "twink"? Is that
What is "twink"? Is that like a "gol' toof", kinda gangsta type thing?
Glad it was painless, but dang! His attitude wasn't. I'm sure there are better out there.
Urban S. Parks
Mainspring Comics
Urban...My Love.
To be fair the job he did was GREAT, glad I didn't run. No pain anymore, though it looks like he put twink on my tooth. Also, virtually PAINLESS despite the fact that he obviously went very deep.
I'm not questioning his ability as a dentist. I'm just not very eager to do repeat business with a man who utilizes blackmail and extortion to get repeat business.
WOW! I'm going to start
WOW! I'm going to start crying whenever someone denies a sale from me.
He's a jerk...you should have run. It makes me think of Steve Martins sadistic dentist in Little Shop of Horrors...only worse! Do you really want someone that emotionally unstable working in your mouth with high speed sharp tools? RUN!!!!
Hope that you are feeling better:).
Urban S. Parks
Mainspring Comics
I would pull out my teeth
I would pull out my teeth with pliers, then laugh maniacally at him through my bloody maw.
Or, I would get a quote from another dentist.
The latter, I reckon.
Scott
"However, depending on what he did, you might have a hard time finding
another dentists who is eager to jump in during the middle of the three
treatments."
Now THAT is the real dilemma. Because of his shit fit I didn't dare persue a comprehensive summary of how important him doing it was. He said that it would be silly to bring someone else in half way but he said that while sulking so I don't know how important it really is in a practical sense and how much of it is just personal pride. So by not answering me in a mature clear headed manner he's putting me in a very difficult situation.
Pay the prick and assure myself no problems in the future? or be principled, tell the prick to fuck off and risk finding out that the gums under my tooth have rotted in to oblivion come December?
There are good guys and bad guys
...in every profession.
It is a business transaction: hurt feelings have nothing to do with it. However, depending on what he did, you might have a hard time finding another dentists who is eager to jump in during the middle of the three treatments.
I would not go back to him if I could find another. It certainly is manipulative behavior.
I do not have dental insurance so a few years back, I went to a new dentist. They gave me a write up of the $1000-plus work than needed to be done. I told them I was on a tight budget, and was paying out of my pocket. They wrote the work up under different, equally accurate work codes and the entire cost was a touch over $500.
I also have had a kind of "reduced rate" insurance which promised a flat rate for the 40 most common dental procedures. Went into a dentist after not being on such a tight budget, and they found half a dozen things they suggested, including a routine cleaning, and you guessed, coincidentallly, NONE of these things were on the list of the 40 most common dental procedures--because they can write up a tooth cleaning and give it a work code in one of about 6 different ways. They control the amount of the bill--you sit in the chair and pay the bill.
At the dentist office, it is buyer beware.
Scott DeSalvo
www.desalvolaw.com
FREE Injury Report and CD Reveal the Secrets You Need to Know to Protect Your RIGHTS!
Jeremy
"Every major injury I've had I just nod my head and do my part of the
job (following doctor's orders) and assume he'll be doing his. I say
good job questioning the commands in this case, Matty!"
Thanks Jeremy, that cheered me up a little :)
It seems so obvious now...
Eaves dropping bastard!
I don't deny it's emotional blackmail. what I'm getting at is that it's also blackmail blackmail. Telling me he will charge me roughly double out of spite if I choose an option he doesn't like.
Matty
And Linz it's not really just emotional blackmail considering his bill threat.
He's using emotional blackmail to get you to accept bills he has no business charging you. Alluding to his hurt feelings says it all. He's probably heard you brushed shoulders with Wgtn Libz and thinks their PC daffiness rubbed off on you.
Incidentally, when I go to the doc these days I go armed with as much knowledge of whatever matter I want to discuss with him as I can garner off the net. Plus the results of my blood pressure home-monitor. He hates it. Too fucking bad!
Yeah, think he wants to use
Yeah, think he wants to use your lack of knowledge concerning his profession and your good faith against you, Matty. He wants your money, and will be polite as pie when he needs to be, or as assholish and overbearing when he wants to be, to get at your wallet.
Elijah is somewhat correct...but it's do more to laymen's ignorances about the workings of their bodies or the courts that makes them so (understandably) bendable when it comes to dealing with doctors, lawyers, etc. Don't feel bad at all!
Every major injury I've had I just nod my head and do my part of the job (following doctor's orders) and assume he'll be doing his. I say good job questioning the commands in this case, Matty!
Thanks Luke
I'm such a push-over in person, I'm starting to feel very embarrassed about the way I let him walk all over me but I was caught off guard. He was so pleasant to begin with...plus he had a drill.
And Linz it's not really just emotional blackmail considering his bill threat.
Christ I'm a sap sometimes, aren't I?
You're in the right here Matty
Go to another dentist AND let the original chap know how you feel about this unprofessional behaviour with a lettter or email. People shouldn't be allowed to get away with this sort of crap.
Don't be an altruist push-over!
He's using emotional blackmail. Sees you're young and assumes you're a sucker for all that hurt feelings rubbish. Don't be!
Elijah
Actually it hasn't happened yet. I've paid for the important part and the rest is pending so I'm weighing my options at this point. It's a pressing issue.
I must admit I do find your snobbery rather endearing when it's aimed at someone I'm cross with
Oh you are in the right,
Oh you are in the right, Matty...
The problem here is you are perhaps unused to laying down the law to such people and showing them who is boss.
This is understandable due to the (inexplicable) esteem to which various Upper Middle Class professions...Medicine, Law, [Dentistry], Engineering (etc)...are held, and so people seem to get all reverent around these sorts of chaps.
Quite a mystery to me...I would no more sit down to dinner with a Dentist or Solicitor than the dustman (if you know what I mean?)...but, yes, these professionals do have an inflated opinion of themselves and it always ends in tears for chaps such as yourself who end up on the wrong end of their bill and snivelling-ism.
Just because he does not have rich parents and is therefore getting royally rooted by interest rate increases and high petrol prices and a ghastly and expensive lady Wife, none of which he is longer able to afford, it is no reason for him to take it out on you, is it?
Alas, it has happened now...so yes, gosh..shrug your shoulders, put it down to experience...and remember for next time that such people are there to serve, not to be revered, and you should set the rules...(regarding their bill and civility) :)
On election day...tick the LIBERTARIANZ box...