In the past you have made accusations that have been thoroughly and objectively proven false. When proven wrong you just stopped replying. I think you should apologies to Lidsay before expecting anyone here to even consider your arguments on anything.

This is getting a little nit picky isn't it.....
I mean the one time you choose to 'get' on Callum is over a generic statement over the south of US. A statement which most can relate too and find perfectly reasonable.

kkulak

No, that's not what an ad hominem is, Callum. You didn't bother to find out? It's a logical fallacy.

Look, you build your mind with every moment of waking experience. Your abstract thought is the most powerful part of that. If you don't take utmost care about the standards you set yourself, and adhere to them every moment, there's a snowball's chance in hell that you'll develop even half the potential of your mind.

Every moment you do not aim for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, you are poisoning the fund of experience and body of knowledge that allows you to be an independent thinker. Forget the issue at hand. Your opinion of the Southern U.S. won't change one magnolia blossom. The issue now is you, yourself. Read Olivia's posts. She doesn't have anything to say. You like her, she's a nice lady, fine. She has paltry intellectual standards, and that has rendered her incapable of much thought. Don't do it to yourself.

Olivia--I know it seems I'm beating on you here. It's not personal. I actually regard you as a very minor sort of Toohey. But you present an object lesson, and I am willing to make use of it.

= Mindy

Excellent points, Olivia! yes, we should be encouraging younger chaps who are intelligent and 'normal' because the rest are morons.

I, too, am rather surprised at the vehemence of Mindy....as if she thinks foot stamping and screaming will shut down debate.

My favourite part of New Zealand is the 'Deep South', too...the area from the Taieri Plains (just south of Dunedin) to Bluff.

I grew up in that neck of the woods and love popping down there a couple of times per year for a visit, but, gosh, I am under no illusions about the weirdo types inhabiting that fine part of our great Nation.

Were someone to start highlighting stereotypes from NZ's Deep South I would be laughing to myself, roaring with laughter, because deep down...well....not even 'deep down'...I know all the stereotypes are true! ha ha!

And, indeed, like the American South, the New Zealand South has a few (*ahem*) urbane, well bred, well spoken Landowners - chaps who are looked up to and viewed as de facto Masters by all the Southern-Man-Inbed-Good-On-Ya-Mate-Okie types who reside down there...(and quite rightly, too)

But, yes, Mindy does appear to be acting like someone who knows she is on a sticky wicket

http://www.nzcapitalist.blogspot.com/

"You evidently don't know what that means. It does not, for example, mean making a personal judgment!"

An ad hominem attack is an attack on a person's character, as opposed to their ideas. To call someone an "ignorant fool", "coward", and "intellectual nit" seems to fit the bill perfectly. You didn't provide sound reasoning (or ANY reasoning!) to back your statements up. That's not a "personal judgment" -that's an idiotic attack on someone's character, which only highlights one's inability to pass true, rational judgment on others. Note that I am not personally using attacks like that against you based on your character.

"Your complacent ignorance is truly astonishing. You say that you and I have the same source of facts on which to base an opinion of how "backward" the South is?? I grew up there, and you have seen some films and TV about it??? That's asinine!"

Yeah, living in a millionaires' community, free from the problems of the outside world, really helps. You may as well be in New Zealand, for instance.
America's a big country, and even people who've lived there all their lives can't pass up judgment on other parts of the country that they haven't been to based on their (lack of) personal experiences -nor could they reasonably be expected to do so. And it's because of the vastness of America that I expect you to take information from similar sources that I do -unless you have lived in all the other states in the South.

"Don't think that how you handle this doesn't matter; that it doesn't matter to you. Intellectual standards are an all-or-nothing issue. All the time. Do you really want to be like Olivia?"

Olivia actually has the idea of respect for people, and acknowledgment that they own their own lives, and don't have to pay homage to others in the form of, say, apologies. And for that, I have infinite times more respect for her than I do for you. Case in point -despite my admittance that I was silly to put the South in with Nigeria and the Middle East, you still try to attack me.
____________________________

One last thing, you might want to answer both my questions -unless you also want to be an "ignorant fool", "coward", and "intellectual nit"?

"Socialism may be dead, but its corpse is still rotting up the place." -Ayn Rand

I had a very frustrating conversation with a woman who asserted (and kept asserting) that Muslim women have a lot more freedom than Western women. The entire crux of her position was living for a time with a Muslim family in the East. No one could argue with her because she kept screeching, "have you been there???" "If not you are just ignorant!" "I've been there so I know!"

You remind me of her Mindy.

And I'll say this to you directly from woman to woman, mother to mother. When we see good character, intelligence, thoughtfulness and a passion for liberty and values in young people coming through this valueless wasteland of a generation, we ought to encourage them like they're gold, for that is the least of their worth to this world. Not bludgeon their like in the manner you have done on this thread. I am absolutely disgusted at your lack of good-will toward the good. Even if you think he may be wrong, as a grown woman with experience and an education like the one you boast, you should be ashamed of the way you've conducted yourself here. Fortunately, Callum is strong and has fortitude and grit, but I mind on his behalf because you ought to damn well know better as a guardian of the young.

You evidently don't know what that means. It does not, for example, mean making a personal judgment!

Your complacent ignorance is truly astonishing. You say that you and I have the same source of facts on which to base an opinion of how "backward" the South is?? I grew up there, and you have seen some films and TV about it??? That's asinine!

Don't think that how you handle this doesn't matter; that it doesn't matter to you. Intellectual standards are an all-or-nothing issue. All the time. Do you really want to be like Olivia?

= Mindy

You've had your chance, Callum. Consider yourself publicly dishonored. You've proved not only to be an ignorant fool, but also a coward, an intellectual nit.

I think the public just got a glimpse of the depth and breadth of Callum's sense of honor, and it is most admirable and deserving of salute.

Really Mindy! The gratuitous meanness of your posts toward a flourishing young man, who is worth his weight in gold to this generation, shows you to be alarmingly wanting in self-possession and good character.

Mindy:

Congratulations, you do a nice line in ad hominem, but I have been away from my computer until now so haven't had an opportunity to respond.

I am certainly not going to apologize for stating an opinion on religious influence on politics. I do not need your sanction to have an opinion, and if you think it is wrong, it is up to you to persuade me otherwise. Ad hominem attacks only highlight one's inability to do so.

My mentioning of the US South in the same sentence as Nigeria and the Middle East was clumsy and wrong. Obviously, it is a part of the Western World, and does have the checks and balances against injustices (unlike Nigeria and the Middle East).

However, the point I was trying to get across was that the historical conservatism of the South had as one of its roots a strong religious influence. Although it has changed for the better over the years, it still appears to retain many of these influences, be they good (such as Southern hospitality) or bad.

When religion is used as a fundamental for running and leading a society, the net result has been that man's freedom of expression, association, and thought have been curtailed.
___________________________

Through all your posts on this thread, you have been asking me for my "sources". Opinions don't require sources -facts do. However, opinions do require justification. And I've probably gotten my justification from the same sources you have -from reading accounts, pictures and TV programs, historical events and yes, videos about the South. Certainly, my opinion was a generalization -the constraints of reality forbid it to be otherwise.

You also go on about "honor" -which is all very well, however, you have to ask about what that honor is based upon. Many murders have been justified by honor.*
____________________

One last point: It's all very well having a debate. However, why shouldn't I ask you to apologize to me about your unfounded ad hominem attacks?

And one last question about the South: Having lived there, would you say that religion plays a big role in the lives of the people there? You might want to think about people outside of your millionaires' community for this one.

*Article: http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?name=Stories_Archive&sa=show_month&ye...

"Socialism may be dead, but its corpse is still rotting up the place." -Ayn Rand

Mindy, perhaps you could calm down a bit...

I spent a week or so travelling through Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia, Florida, Alabama and South Carolina looking for the Aristocracy, ..(my kind of chaps, afterall)... but without success.

Tennessee Williams was correct, alas, and egalitarianism seemed to be everywhere.

All I found were a lot of oddball religious fanatics, Elvis fanatics, beauty pagent attendees, bad teeth, bad skin, a monstrous assault on the English language from anyone opening their mouth and all and all I would have looked forward to a weeklong holiday in Nigeria or the Middle East to meet some civilised people!

As I have said many times before the part of America I have most enjoyed visiting for the people and atmosphere is Idaho and South Dakota.

I have found most large American cities ...(NYC, LA, Memphis, Atlanta, Miami, Washington DC, New Orleans etc) ...to be quite boring... (anyone who has been to Hamilton at weekends will understand what I mean); and New York, in particular, seemed highly overrated.

Having said that I loved the Florida Keys in the South and recommend it to anyone as a holiday destination.

http://www.nzcapitalist.blogspot.com/

Raaaaaaaaaaaaoooooooowwwwwwwww!!!!!!
kkulak

You've had your chance, Callum. Consider yourself publicly dishonored. You've proved not only to be an ignorant fool, but also a coward, an intellectual nit. It won't cost you any friends here, of course, and maybe that's all that counts with you.

Elijah, you've visited the South and didn't find anybody fit to have dinner with? Maybe the sentiment was mutual. You, of all people, should realize that it was the South that was home to an elite class, a virtual aristocracy. It is the South where manners,  culture, family, and "breeding" were important, not the North! In the North, wealth and being related to the "Mayflower" families was everything. The mentality of the middle class in the North remains a sort of defensiveness about being peasants. In the South, the mentality of the same group is a wholesome self-satisfaction at their increasing prosperity.

I am, I guess, especially positioned to comment on this issue. I have lived at length both places, and continue to visit in the South frequently. I have attended universities in both places, performed in many musical groups both places, and while I more recently live and lived in the more desirable communities in both places--the new homes across the street here went for 2.5 million. My home outside Atlanta, on a lake, is also a millionaires' community, I first lived in a house on a dirt road in a town that had a single stop-light. I went to small-town public schools, and my daughter has been to the public schools here in NY. I've worked both places also. Do you really want to say I don't know what I'm talking about?

Here's a good example of the cultural strengths of the South: there is a large, non-profit tennis organization based in Atlanta, called ALTA--Atlanta Lawn Tennis Assoc. It organizes leagues for competitive tennis. It is huge. People form teams across half the state and drive into range to play in ALTA. There are many skill levels, and teams and players must be rated for skill to play at a given level. Teams play two singles and three doubles matches at a meet, or all doubles. Playing the team's strongest pair at spot 1, etc., is a matter of honor. Putting your no. two team in at the 1 spot so that you're sure to win no. 2 is called sandbagging. There is a summer-long tournament of weekly meets and the teams with the best outcomes are entered into a finals tournament, and the winning team--at each skill level--is awarded trophies. It is a great thing to "win ALTA." Volunteers run the whole thing, and tens of thousands of people play, including teaching pros and some circuit pros at the highest level. It is a long-standing organization that is much praised by the USTA (United States Tennis Association.)

The USTA has tried to implement an ALTA-like league organization here in the North. Guess what? It didn't work. I was playing league tennis when they tried, and was on several teams during the years it was put in place. (I also played ALTA for many years in the South, of course.) It wouldn't work because there isn't a cultural sense of honor in the North.

The majority of women wanted to rig the line-up to maximize wins. They recruited ringers, and they staged fake ratings so that their team would be stronger than others at that level. Of course, everybody else did the same thing, so the matched-skill aspect was mostly lost. The quarreling over what some team did, sand-bagging, ringers, was constant and vicious, and the volunteer organizers became part of the fuss. Just like mob politics, in fact. I think this is a pretty good sociological experiment.

Do you know that the South is known for its friendliness and hospitality? I always wondered why people said that, until I moved to the North. Civility, at least in the  tri-state area is unknown. The paper boy, the man who comes to put in fence-posts, the guy you hire to cut your lawn, your land-lord, and everybody else you interact with will cheat you if they can! It's in NYC that 40 people watched from their windows a girl being raped and killed, without even calling the police! Do you know the rep of NYC taxi-drivers? To walk the streets of NYC, you have to learn the same tactics. Otherwise, you'll be dodging, backing up, and waiting for others to go by all day! Every inch of sidewalk, and every millisecond of time is competed for. Of course, NYC isn't the North altogether. It's just what it aims to be.

The South isn't backwards, and it isn't like Nigeria or the Middle East. Atrocious comparison! It's the Catholic North that goes to church every day, and whose church made the comment you dislike, Callum. You wouldn't be welcome in the South, where dignity and reputation count, nor, I think, would you be welcome in the North, in fact, because you need to be sharp here. I guess New Zealand is right for you. Evidently honor isn't a big thing in New Zealand, either.

= Mindy

"I expect it was access to the bible for the common man.
What do you think was the difference?"

A short list would be:

+ The Carolingian Renaissance
+ The preservation and translation of ancient texts
+ The first universities in the West
+ The introduction of writing to pagan Europe by Christianity
+ The rise of Christian humanism: Chaucer, Dante, Boccaccio
+ First enunciation of basic scientific methodology by Roger Bacon
+ Impetus theory and the evolutionary beginnings of modern physics
+ The invention of eyeglasses, clocks, modern surgical equipment, etc.
+ Thomas Aquinas and the re-introduction of Aristotle to the West
+ Gothic architecture
+ New techniques in painting*

What the Objectivists here are tapping into is a discredited approach to historiography
known as the "Whig theory of History." In the "Whig Theory," science (starting in the Renaissance) sees an upward procession from success to success, all the way being thwarted by the forces of reaction (headed by religion). (Kearney, 15-22) Its subset in the history of science is "Conflict Theory."

In actual point of fact, it was the "evil old Middle Ages" that saw the beginning and development of the sustained fusion of technology and natural philosophy that fueled Western science's ultimate development and evolution. (Goldstein, 199) It is also the case that resistance to change came as much from the "scientific establishment" and the jealousy and inertia of its membership as from organized religious opposition. The view has little influence among those who are actually knowledgeable about the particulars of scientific development.

Also, the view that the Church was a monolithic force blocking all rational inquiry during the Middle Ages is equally wrong-headed, as most of the genuine intellectual advancement in that era took place under its aegis.

(Goldstein, pp. xi-xiv, c.f. footnotes on p. 69, 70 and 76)

Professor Ronald L. Numbers is one of the leading figures in the history of science and the author of the definitive work on the history of Creationism. Here are his comments on the subject:

http://www.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/faraday/CIS/Numbers/Numbers_Lecture.pdf

http://www.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/faraday/CIS/Numbers/Numbers_Discussion.p...

Here he is with his colleague David C. Lindberg:

http://www.asa3.org/asa/PSCF/1987/PSCF9-87Lindberg.html

Works Cited:

Goldstein, Thomas. DAWN OF MODERN SCIENCE. Foreward by Issac Asimov. American Heritage Library edition. (Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1988).

Kearney, Hugh. SCIENCE AND CHANGE 1500-1700. World University Library. (New York, Toronto: Mc Graw-Hill, 1971)

*Hat tip on several of these examples to my friend, Bill Ramey.

"Be it a question of science, metaphysics, or religion, the man who says: 'What is truth?' as Pilate did, is not a tolerant man, but a betrayer of the human race."-Jacques Maritain

I do not think Callum has made an error, or needs to apologise.

He has stated his view and it is fairly accurate; and I speak as someone who has been to the American Deep South, where most chaps I met were nice enough but hardly the sort of chaps you would invite to dinner.

You are hardly an objective observer, Mindy....(and I am ASTOUNDED you were unable to understand the joke I made)...and often a place requires visitors to make the accurate observations, as the locals are unable to do so.

http://www.nzcapitalist.blogspot.com/

I currently live in Indiana and this place never ceases to amaze me. Court decisions to keep a parent from raising their children in "non-Mainstram religion" (Wicca), a recent attempt on a law banning gay marriage getting shot down BECAUSE THERE WAS ALREADY ONE ON THE BOOKS, kids dying of routine illnesses because the parents believed in prayer over medicine.

And on a much much much lighter note Manning and Dungy won't shut up about Jesus. (Go Colts none-the-less)

This place disgusts me sometimes.

---Landon

Never mistake contempt for compassion, or power lust for ambition.

http://www.myspace.com/wickedlakes

Super Hero Babylon

Time to be a man and admit you've made a bad error, Callum. You wrote as fact some vague impressions you had from questionable sources, and grossly overgeneralized to a whole region of this country.

It's come early in your life, but here is a moment when the whole world will see what you are made of. And will make a record of it.  

Are you saying a couple of film clips are your source of information? Have you ever been to the U.S. South? How much of it have you seen, and how much time did you spend there? WHAT ARE YOUR SOURCES?

= Mindy

Try debating the existence of God in a Southern Baptist Church. Then you'll see what I mean. And it's true that people in the Midwest are also very religious -that doesn't say anything about the US South.

Also, although not directly Church related, try watching this and tell me that these people aren't backward:
[Top Gear - Rednecks in Alabama USA - American road trip pt 2 - BBC:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2syY12OPkwI]

However, what's really ridiculous is that nobody tried to help them -after all, shouldn't someone have a gun?

Mindy, if you lived in or near Atlanta, it probably isn't as bad as further south. As a general rule, urban areas are more tolerant than rural areas.

Bill Maher's new film "religuous" also looks like it will justify many of my assertions.

"Socialism may be dead, but its corpse is still rotting up the place." -Ayn Rand

That is what he said. He puts the U.S. South in a category with Nigeria and the Middle East! The kid's perspective is farsical! Why can't he speak up and say where he gets his information for forming such an opinion?

There are MANY more parochial and other religious schools in the North than in the South. Religion is sneaked into school activities regularly here where I live, whereas, there was no such thing in my elementary or secondary education in Georgia. People in the South keep Church in their churches, and church activities. All U.S. politicians give at least lip service to God. As for corruption in politics and police and courts, it is rampant in both places, but isn't related to religion, except, possibly, the Irish-Catholics in the North as a large contingent in police enforcement. The Catholics, whom the post refers to, are few and far between in the South! Catholicism is a religion of the North. By the way, Long Island, NY had the largest KKK organization in the nation!

I don't know why I should need to realize that NZ is highly secular, but I think it's great that it is. And, Elijah, I was born and grew up in the South, but have lived in NY for 20+ years.

The post needs to be amended. It is offensively and ridiculously false.

= Mindy 

While it's nowhere near as bad as the states, religion does play somewhat of a role in day to day life. Almost all (if not all) private schools have compulsory church sessions even though the vast majority of parents sending their children there are secularists or light-Christians.

As far as politics is concerned though I pretty much agree. Religion has next to no influence on the NZ government. Mindy, if you think our politics is influenced by religion as much as the states (southern or otherwise) you need to come over here and check it out for yourself.

That's just not true.

EDIT: Oh, you were comparing the southern states to northern states not America to NZ, sorry I was skimming. I'm skeptical of that though. How many senators from the south favor prayer in schools as opposed to senators from the north?

You American chaps need to understand that New Zealand is a very secular Country where our Politicians (to their credit) are not religious, most of them are atheists...(or claim to be 'agnostic' as a compromise)...and religion plays no part in day to day life in NZ.

As for the Roman Catholic church..well...gosh...these are chaps who practise medieval witchcraft full of mysticism and supernatural irrationality. An organisation best ignored because its basic activities are so bizarre as to not being worth bothering about.

Mindy, you say you lived in Georgia and New York simultaneously...ummm...so...one foot in Georgia and one foot in New York...hmmmmmm....I pity the poor b*ggers in Washington ...(geddit?)

http://www.nzcapitalist.blogspot.com/

William -
... what was the essential difference from the start of the enlightenment from the start of the dark ages?

I expect it was access to the bible for the common man.

What do you think was the difference?

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Having lived in Indiana, California, Texas, and Georgia, I'd easily rank IN over TX or GA for where religion is taken seriously. Maybe we're backward hicks here in GA for some other reason, but midwesterners are the real Bible Belt.

"You said religion played MORE of a role in Southern politics, and that the South was consequently a backwards place."

Media mainly . Media is very good at exposing traits amongst cultures of differnt geographic destinations. Take a look at Outrageous fortune for example. High profile politicians do pay lip service to christianity and that obligation makes me sick.

Have a look at the intolerance of southerners such as texans in the movie Borat and see for yourself. Don't ask for specifics when someone is generalising it gets you nowhere. Generally speaking the south is backward.
kkulak

You said religion played MORE of a role in Southern politics, and that the South was consequently a backwards place.

In answer to my question, where do you get this absurd opinion, you say that "The fact that religion does play a role in politics in the Southern states is cause for concern."  Don't dodge the question. What is the basis for your stated opinions?

Who told you that people in the U.S. pay lip service to religion?  Do you mean politicians do? Where in the world do you get this ridiculous going to church every day? What is your source of information for these claims?

= Mindy

The fact that religion does play a role in politics in the Southern States is cause for concern.

Here in NZ, for instance, we still have many devout Christians (although they're somewhat more tolerant than their counterparts in the US South). However, that doesn't mean that the politics in NZ is influenced by Christianity (look at our Prime Minister; she isn't exactly Christian). Whereas, in the US South, to play any role in politics you have to believe in God, go to Church every day, and say "God Bless America!" frequently.

The difference is, the Christians here can tolerate other beliefs (or no belief) in the political system. In the US, even if you don't believe in God, you still have to pay lip service to Christianity.

"Socialism may be dead, but its corpse is still rotting up the place." -Ayn Rand

"Judeo-Christian Enlightenment" is an oxymoron.

There may be more sincere religious belief in the South, but it doesn't play any bigger role in politics than in the North. What's your basis for this remark?

The US South is backwards with regard to the rest of the world? Which movie did you take that opinion from? I lived more than twenty years in Ga. and the same time in New York. You are so very wrong!!

= Mindy

"After all, what was the essential difference from the start of the enlightenment from the start of the dark ages?"

The rebirth of scientific inquiry and the self-reinforcing fusion of science and technology that was born in the High Middle Ages, that's what.

"Be it a question of science, metaphysics, or religion, the man who says: 'What is truth?' as Pilate did, is not a tolerant man, but a betrayer of the human race."-Jacques Maritain

Reed -- no civilized nation was founded on the Judeo-Christian Enlightenment. To believe otherwise is to think in terms of non-essentials. After all, what was the essential difference from the start of the enlightenment from the start of the dark ages?

Wm

Callum -
Which civilised nations weren't built on The Judeo-Christian Enlightenment?

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