Rational passion and passionate reason
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Friendship and Values Submitted by John M Newnham on Sun, 2006-03-05 22:08.
As an individualist, with Objectivism as my guide, I would like to think that I choose friends based on shared values. A recent event challenged this idea. I found myself faced with someone, a person with whom I had corresponded, in whom I had confided personal information, and on whom I had conferred the title friend. For myself the introvert, the cautionary one, the wolf, this was no small thing. In some ways, I had begun to see in this person, a kindred spirit. When the shit hit the fan however, and some fell my way, a number of things happened. First I questioned the process by which we had become "friends". It had started with praise. He became aware of one of my aspirations, and praised it to the hilt. He confessed similar aspirations. He mirrored some of my experiences, and spoke about values which were near to my heart. In public, I was offered yet more praise, and sanctioned heavily. For my part I surrendered reason to validation. I mean, fuck, the man called me a genius. Hemingway was a genius. Damn! But there were the red flags. The too-detailed past, repeated over and over. The dramatic flair, which was always overdone. One of my articles was sanctioned by him, with a congratulatory note, then weeks later, sanctioned again with a note! Software glitch? Maybe. And shit, he had more points than the founder of the site! But perhaps I had been imbibing a little too much wine, had smoked one too many joints in years past, and was simply reading much into nothing. Then came the long posts on multiple threads, and a picture emerged of my friend that did not sit right with my stomach. Something began to disturb me. This often-eloquent, sickening joviality was co-mingled with a dishonest, intentional practice of twisting other posters' words into what was, in essence, philosophical balloon art. That he did it with my own posts went unnoticed by me because, well, I had stopped reading most of his stuff by then. When I did read his posts again, his balloon-making habit (if not skillful, very prodigious), and the shrillness of his words had increased alarmingly. I became aware that in fact we shared nothing in the way of values, and that the ideas he was espousing were the antithesis of mine, let alone Objectivism. By the time the smoke had cleared, I had more or less erased the friend publicly and privately. Also, a more important house-cleaning had begun. This was the cleaning and polishing of *my* values, the growing of *my* awareness. The experience taught me about vanity (my own), and added much more to my powers of discernment. There are those who will flatter you, and mirror your values. In some cases these chameleons are not after true friendship, based on shared values, but simply want a fan base. In other cases, they seek nothing. Looking around I can see that this former friend has gotten everything he wanted. Word is, he even has his own church. Yes, yes he calls himself an Objectivist but that shouldn't matter now should it, let him tell you about the time when.... Do I have a handle on making friends? No! I am a little wiser though, and won't be purchasing any more tokens for the ring-toss from the happy man behind the counter. Regards all,
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Well spotted John,I thought I was the only one seeing the christians push into alternative groups in order to confuse and twist the group into a bunch of agnostics that would not represent a threat to the church.Mimickery is they say the greatest form of flatery which is why I wouldn't wear a I'm an Infidel T shirt,I would only be flatering them.I do internet dating and have a simple rule if they say all the right things,their full of shit!
John
On second thought, John, I feel like an ass by imposing the question on you for something that is nobody's business. This could very well still be a sensitive issue for you...I don't know. Maybe not. Still.
But, yes, great post and I was very curious. Your description did alarm my Objectivist Spider sense.
Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy
Kelly you are so right.
Kelly you are so right. Thank you.
Ciro's post
Sorry to go a little off topic, John. I admired your post. It is a wonderful thing when a man can learn a lesson and then feel proud enough of the lesson to share it, instead of embarrassed about the mistake. Kudos to you.
This has been a while (since Ciro posted), but I read it for the first time today, and I wanted to say something about it. My ex and I are still wonderful friends. He is a good man, a great man even, and I love him, respect him, and spend lots of time with him. He just isn't the man for me to be married to. So I want people to know that when rational people separate, it is possible to remain rational, cherish the values that you share, and not villify a person beyond his deserts.
Kelly
Please tell us...is it MSK?
Please tell us...is it MSK?
Victor: Objectivist--writer--artist--nice guy
Hey Ciro
Ciro:
Lance, I agree with you on this, it makes sense, but I think red flags are not always to be consider bad, sometimes they represent lack of courage, insecurity, and doubt. It is important to investigate to understand the real meaning of these red flags. We must try to make a person feel comfortable with his decisions, and encouraging him/her to put trust in us. Many people are confused and change their mind quite often; this is not a good reason to dismiss their friendship, or to stop doing business with them. Have patients-sometimes people need to grow- and to feel safe when dealing with you; give them time, not everybody read Atlas.
Ciro, if we're talking about being close friends then red flags make it impossible. A red flag means that such-and-such a person is demonstrating behavior that conflict with your core principles. You just can't be close friends with someone like that over the long-term. It will go to pieces.
We needn't be enemies with them either but can simply walk past them until we find our friends.
Not Me
John, I didn't take your reply to me as a "capitulation." You were only talking about a narrow, technical point, not your post generally. In fact I liked the general import of what you said there.
--Brant
Clarity
It was brought to my attention that my replies, to Brant in particular, are in fact capitulation. They are not. I was adding some perspective. I am not and never want to give the impression that that cane toad, MSK has *victimized* me in some way. Yes, I think he is a toad. But the break in friendship was not due to an action *against* me. It was due to:
1. Him revealing his true character to an extent that it was visible finally, albeit late, to me.
2. MY decision to sever the relationship through the exercise of reason and pride.
Some have taken the post as some kind of whiney, sobbing, self indulgent story about how MSK had "hurt" me or some such bullshit.
My subsequent posts were clarifying that I made the decision consciously, and I own the rights to my mind, and that I had made errors in judgement. That I gave him (MSK) the time of day when I shouldnt have.
I have not recanted or softened my position.
There shouldn't be any red
There shouldn't be any red flags in a close relationship. It should be easy.
Lance, I agree with you on this, it makes sense, but I think red flags are not always to be consider bad, sometimes they represent lack of courage, insecurity, and doubt. It is important to investigate to understand the real meaning of these red flags. We must try to make a person feel comfortable with his decisions, and encouraging him/her to put trust in us. Many people are confused and change their mind quite often; this is not a good reason to dismiss their friendship, or to stop doing business with them. Have patients-sometimes people need to grow- and to feel safe when dealing with you; give them time, not everybody read Atlas.
CD
Brant, yes, I see what you
Brant, yes, I see what you mean. That it appears as a headline gives it more prominence than I had intended.
Pride
Shayne,
Pride is one of the virtues from an objectivist standpoint that is not in vogue these days. That is an indication of its *worthiness* of discussion and exploration, especially if you recognise that what is popular is often inversely proportionate to worth
The last best thing I read on Pride (Rand obviously being the first) was from Diana Mertz Hsieh over at http://www.dianahsieh.com/blog/
She did a presentation once for TOC, I think it was Objectivism 101, that put Pride in context beautifuly. I can't locate it online anymore however.
regards
John
Personal Blog
I hear you, John, and read that way you are quite right. However, it was effectively also a complaint about MSK. (Initiation of force, btw, is out of the loop in this discussion.)
The problem with personal blog is that it is a distinction with a small difference when one's thoughts greet other members when they sign on.
--Brant
Brant
This is not about personality, Brant. It is about principle and values. The original post is /was not intended to be a silly rant about someone who done me wrong. We weren't that close! And to be honest such melodrama is not my style.
For the record MSK did nothing wrong to *me*. To use a hackneyed phrase, there was no initiation of force
This post is about ME, and my knowledge of self, and my decision making process. For all I know he could give a rats ass. He is nothing if not *driven* in pursuit of *his* values. I have in the past praised him and defended him publicly. By making it known publicly that I was mistaken, and that I have severed the friendship such as it was, is all about me, and my error in judgement. More importantly its about my intention to learn from past mistakes. That this is posted as a personal blog entry rather than an article is one indication of that intent.
Be careful with your Optimism
John, I've always enjoyed your posts. You seem very down-to-earth.
We have to be careful about where we extend our optimism. Dagny extended hers toward her brother and all the other jokers at Taggert Transcontinental and got burned. If it's not real it's not real and can have no value. So we have to check, re-check, and verify whatever it is that we're dealing with.
There shouldn't be any red flags in a close relationship. It should be easy.
MSK
John, if MSK did you wrong then please have the courtesy to ID him by name and concretize your complaint. Granted he has his own style and personality which you don't like, but you really didn't tell us how he did you wrong. And you couldn't sanction a post twice on the old SOLOHQ.
--Brant
Pride
John: The most important thing I see here is that you are exemplifying the virtue of pride--of recognizing that you can improve and then working to improve--the hallmark of a good man becoming a great man.
Well said John. - Jason
Well said John.
- Jason
I hardly hear any man or
I hardly hear any man or woman saying that his ex was a good person. I guess that once a friendship ends between a husband and wife, or between friends, we always feel that we have been cheated, fooled, or abused. I don’t think that MSK planed to cheat, fool or abuse anybody here, or that he was interested to run a church, he has just come to a conclusion that his ideas don’t match with Linz’s or many others on the forum here, and that’s all, but to say that he planed to fool people is just too childish for me to accept.
DC
Struck a chord with me, John!
And I mean that *sincerely*!
It's been a bit galling to try to create a "pocket of sincerity & decency" as Tim Sturm calls it, & end up wondering where the next knife will be coming from! Still, only been a very small number of bad apples really. I'm glad you woke up to that particular one. Took *me* long enough.
Was this MSK?
Am I correct in thinking that this was MSK?