Echoing Chris, I still haven't heard a good argument -- any sort of argument, really -- for Beethoven's "malevolence". The issue turns on what malevolence really means in music.

I also agree with those who seem to claim, in one way or another, that the sample often drawn from Beethoven's works (to support the evaluation of "malevolent") is insufficient, usually drawn entirely from his iconic stormy side. So the issue is dual: the character of an individual piece, versus the overall tendencies of the composer.

Sadness, loss, grief, and defeat do not constitute malevolent emotional themes, not as such. Even supposing they did, those don't exhaust Beethoven's emotional repertoire.

The fiery, austere Beethoven is always about struggle and conflict, in one way or another. But the struggle often turns out well (for whoever it is that's doing the struggling...), and the result can be thrilling. Does Beethoven ever convey hopeless loss (Tchaikovsky 6...)? Does he ever induce visceral pain and anguish (Mahler 9...)?

Is there ever any trace of the frivolous? Does Beethoven ever mock values, harping on the trivial? No. Beethoven doesn't play that game. Beethoven takes sides.

Then there's the playful, kind-hearted, witty Beethoven. Then there's the Beethoven who seems to be painting what can't be painted, the orbits of the planets in the sky and the sun's emergence over the horizon. Then there's the Beethoven who worships, who overflows with love and gratitude for all of existence.

It's not directed at you personally it's just something I've seen a lot of. I can't speak for you and since you seemed to take offense all I can assume is this specifically isn't the approach you take. Good for you, hope to see more of it.

As to my agreement I'm more familiar with Beethoven than I am with other composers but my familiarity with classical music in general is pretty low, from what I've heard I have heard some malevolent themes. These may be the exceptions rather than the rule but I'm going by what I'm familiar with (the blind men describing an elephant metaphor comes to mind here but I digress).

I guess I'll just have to retire my arguement until I develop more familiarity with the content. My main resoning in the assessment I've made often has to do with the fact that every time I hear his music it stirs emotions in me which seem reminiscent of a great struggle, whether the challenge of that struggle is met I think exists only in teh sense of life of the individual listener.

But in general my arguement wasn't that a person necessarily should or shouldn't agree with any particular assessment Rand made, but more that they should be able to understand why they made their own assessment.

I've said elsewhere that I like such things as some heavy metal music and the movie Fight Club (at least I did at one point I'm not sure I'd still like it if I watched it today) but at the very least Noir cinema and well done tragedies. I'm not usually going to try to defend them as life afirming but I know what I like about them and I've given a lot of thought as to what that means when applied to the total context of what I know about myself. I guess that's why I like my quirks and the areas where I did, do or would disagree with Rand or anyone else... I take it as a chance to learn about myself.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

I tend to agree with Rand's assessment but I still like his work better than most other composers. I think one of the biggest problems I see among Objectivist aestheticians is an over-willingness to disown their sense of life in favor of some standard they're supposed to live up to, instead of simply accepting and understanding it.

1. There is no such attempt going on here.

2. My music tastes may well run partly into the [whatever wasn't to Rand's liking]. Some sad music, some avant-garde atonal work (like Ligeti's -- I was thinking of starting a thread on his stuff), even -- gasp -- Mozart. Probably even some lousy music, by some folks' standards. (Steely Dan?)

3. Why do you agree with Rand's assessment of Beethoven? I'm looking for something resembling an argument, and something more than "the Moonlight Sonata and the 5th symphony have a malevolent tone to them."

I tend to agree with Rand's assessment but I still like his work better than most other composers. I think one of the biggest problems I see among Objectivist aestheticians is an over-willingness to disown their sense of life in favor of some standard they're supposed to live up to, instead of simply accepting and understanding it.

---Landon

Inking is sexy.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/wickedlakes

From The Heiligenstadt Testament:
http://www.lucare.com/immortal/he_test.html

"O ye men who accuse me of being malevolent, stubborn and
misanthropical, how ye wrong me! Ye know not the secret
cause. Ever since childhood my heart and mind were disposed
toward feelings of gentleness and goodwill, and I was eager
to accomplish great deeds; but consider this: for six years
I have been hopelessly ill, aggravated and cheated by quacks in
the hope of improvement but finally compelled to face a lasting
malady ... I was forced to isolate myself. I was misunderstood
and rudely repulsed because I was as yet unable to say to people,
"Speak louder, shout, for I am deaf" ... With joy I hasten to meet
death. Despite my hard fate ... I shall wish that it had come later;
but I am content, for he shall free me of constant suffering. Come
then, Death, and I shall face thee with courage." Heiglnstadt (sic)
6 October, 1802.

Heh, I didn't want to bring up Immortal Beloved precisely because it was dramatized, but I've read that the main premise of the missed meeting and the subsequent disillusionment was true? That'd be enough to make anyone Bryonic!

Perhaps my perception of Beethoven is colored by the quasi-fiction of Immortal Beloved. There, Beethoven is portrayed as somewhat all over the place, but often having an explosive temperment, grumpy, and even quick to denounce others. (!) But one character also makes the rather apt observation, something like, "How could I forever hold it against a man who was capable of producing such work?" (referring to the 9th symphony) Beethoven, perhaps above all, comes across as a noble soul, even if tormented at times.

Whatever the truth there, his music does often come across as explosive and stormy. The symphonies, of course, and something like the "Egmont" overture, convey that sensibility probably more than anything.

No one's "vilifying" Rand for her assessment, though; rather, it's more of a puzzled questioning as to how she would have seen this as a dominant character of Beethoven's music.

Oh, also -- the most famous portaits of Beethoven are the ones with that furled brow, almost with that fist shaking in anger towards the heavens. But you might check out the other portaits of him as well. Those portray a fairly normal sensibility. I think that the "grumpy" portrait is most often used because it so well plays into the myth and legend surrounding Beethoven. It was hammed up to nice effect by Gary Oldman in the movie.

(Currently listening: 2nd symphony, 2nd movement. Explosive indeed.)

Chris, I've listened to Beethoven, and personally share your assessment of the triumphant passages. I also wonder what works Rand was familiar with. "Moonlight Sonata" I'm sure she'd have heard. But what I am confused by is the "vilification" of Rand for her assessment as being odd when other commentators have shared her view. (Heck, even the pictures of Beethoven depict him as somewhat surly!).

I don't remember if I quoted this elsewhere, but Rand briefly explains herself in the Q&A:
"He is a great composer, but I can't stand him. Music expresses a sense of life-an emotional response to metaphysical issues. Beethoven is great because he makes his message so clear by means of music; but his message is malevolent universe: man's heroic fight against destiny, and man's defeat. That's the opposite of my sense of life."

I'm not an expert on Beethoven, so maybe someone else know: is it not accurate to say that Beethoven held a Byronic view of life? The heroic struggle is there, I'm sure Rand would acknowledge that, and I've heard it said that Beethoven was great because he opened the door musically to a violent psychological expression.

I was wondering about this today. I was reading the book Classical Music in America where I came across a statement of Beethoven's music being dark and moody. And I remember learning about Beethoven in school that he had a violent personality. So I wonder why Rand gets so much slack for saying that he was "malevolent" even though its an attribute seemingly accorded to him?

I would say that a better understanding of the characteristic mood of Beethoven's music is from listening to it, rather than reading a book on classical music. I think that if you sample a broad range of Beethoven's most well-known works, you'll find some "dark and moody" things in there, but it could hardly describe Beethoven's music in whole, and hardly even any single compositions in whole. The Moonlight Sonata is about the only one that comes prominently to mind, being that its two well-known movements are very minor-key, even harsh and grating in the more "presto/agitato" of those two. There are some movements here and there elsewhere, but they tend to be counteracted by the light or joyous or triumphant. Yes, Beethoven's music encompasses a broad range of moods, so it's not at all a knock against him to call his music "moody"; it's a precursor to the Romantic style, after all.

The 6th isn't actually "benevolent" in its entirety, but it has such an overwhelmingly warm tone, and the least "violent" of his major symphonies. I gather that Beethoven was a man of many moods, "violent" being one of them. But you take a work like the 6th or the violin concerto, or the damn entirety of the 5th piano concerto, and it's joyous, life-affirming.

Also note: whether Beethoven himself was dark, moody or violent is not especially relevant to the main point, when Rand was commenting on his music, not him the person. She may not have even known much about Beethoven the person; I take her comments to apply to what she thinks she gathered from just listening to the music.

I have to wonder just what works by Beethoven she was familiar with. If you do get a small and limited sampling of just the "right" works, yeah, you might get a picture of his music as reflecting a malevolent sense of life. But his work is simply too diverse and too often joyous. It's one thing to say that a composer's works just don't resonate with you, but another to raise claims of such things as a malevolent sense of life.

"What do you suspect was the cause of Miss Rand's estimation of Beethoven's sense of life? I just don't see it. Even the "malevolent"-seeming 5th and 9th end on a note of triumph... Do Beethoven's symphonies vary in greatness depending on the "sense of life" they project? Is there an identifiable "malevolence" in tone in places, or to a large extent, in some of his symphonies?"

I was wondering about this today. I was reading the book Classical Music in America where I came across a statement of Beethoven's music being dark and moody. And I remember learning about Beethoven in school that he had a violent personality. So I wonder why Rand gets so much slack for saying that he was "malevolent" even though its an attribute seemingly accorded to him?

I'm listening to a nice clear-sounding (though perhaps not my favorite interpretation - Karajan late '70s) recording of this right now. I was doing some listening to #'s 3-9 throughout the day, and the Walter interpretation of the 6th would be tremendous in a high-quality late-ADD or DDD recording; alas, it's too fuzzy to be wholly satisfactory.

But the 6th -- man, this may well capture what's so great about Beethoven to me. Yeah, the other usual suspects - 9, 5, 3, 7 - no question they're all tremendous as well. We're talking here, though, about the so very tough task of ranking them, and the 6th is, how shall I say it, the most benevolent of Beethoven's symphones. I find it the most beautiful through and through -- from the melody to how well it's all put together. It's the very kind of symphony that makes me incredulous as to how Rand would have regarded Beethoven's sense of life as malevolent.

That's worth a discussion in its own right. What do you suspect was the cause of Miss Rand's estimation of Beethoven's sense of life? I just don't see it. Even the "malevolent"-seeming 5th and 9th end on a note of triumph. (Maybe I've said already that I'm annoyed by the opening of the 5th, not just for being overplayed to death, but just because I'm annoyed by it. The 9th may well be the grandest-scale and ambitious of the symphonies, but I don't regard that as synonymous with "best" -- and I'm just not that thrilled with the choral finale, even as it is about the only point of positive, life-affirming "triumph". I'm just not big on there being a choral part to it. Plus I find the choral melody a bit childish and simplistic, virtually echoing the sentiment of Beethoven's nephew in Immortal Beloved.)

So I guess there are a couple nice points of debate and discussion here:

1. What's Beethoven's finest symphony? In saying the 6th, I may be revealing a bias I have towards "mid-period" Beethoven, of the roughly 1805-1810 period (Opii 50-100 or thereabouts, which contains symphonies 3-8, the violin concerto, and piano concerti 4-5). I see that JQ has already weighed in on what he regards as the finest recordings of this symphony, but I'm seeking more recommendations as well. That Barenboim box set (I assume DDD in all its glory) looks appealing.

2. Do Beethoven's symphonies vary in greatness depending on the "sense of life" they project? Is there an identifiable "malevolence" in tone in places, or to a large extent, in some of his symphonies?

I'll also mention, that my second favorite Beethoven is the 7th. I also like a lot the 3rd movement from the 3rd, the last two movements of the 5th, and the first two movements of the 9th. (Strangely enough, it's those first two movements that have the minor-key "malovolent" tone to them, but as musical technique goes, they are eminently listenable even if the 2nd movement is also overplayed.)

You finish your helpful comments with: "I am only familiar with Marricone from a handful of Italian movies and
Spaghetti westerns. I'll check out your website for some more suggestions."

His score for Cinema Paradiso is just the tip of the iceberg of what's beautiful in Morricone's music. I'd assume you're familiar with his music in Once Upon a Time in America given the discussions over on the film group. His score for The Legend of 1900 (directed by Guiseppe Tornatore, same director as for Cinema Paradiso) may be his best score/soundtrack, but he's done so many great ones that it's hard to single any one out. That one and his score for Lolita with Jeremy Irons are my favorites. (Get these two along with the Itinerary of a Genius compilation, and you've made a very good start. To think, some of the most beautiful instrumental music that's been made, released within the past 10 years.) The ones he did for the Leone films, especially the Once Upon a Time... ones, are well-established classics in addition to being amongst my other favorites by him.

I gather that Romantic music is big amongst Objectivists (and most everyone else), and I don't know of a better composer (from the past century or any period at all) of the Romantic adagio than Morricone. I've found some of his melodies astounding. It's notable that some of the best instrumental music of the past century comes from the world of film.

"Bruno Walter 4 & 6 (Sony)"

This is a CD that I don't own -- and one that I will certainly take a look at next time I am in the market for another recording of the 6th since I've heard a lot of good things about it.

"Solti 1972 (Penguin/Decca; ADD) and 1987 (Decca; DDD)"

I have 1987. Been years since I've pulled it off the shelf. The sound quality is decent.

"Furtwangler 1951 Bayreuth (EMI)"

Mono sound, so so orchestra. This one is good, but sometimes gets overrated.

"Karajan 1977"

Very good 9th. I prefer it to 1963 (which is also good). The one thing that I dislike about it (and all Karajan 9ths) is that the choir in the final movement sounds like it is 20 miles away.

"Furtwangler 1942"

I've tried to sit through these a few times but I should admit that the sound bothered me too much, so my opinion about the actual performances should be taken with a grain of salt. Maybe someday I will get it. I agree with you regarding some of the tempo selections. For some reason I can deal with the bad sound of Furtwangler war time Bruckner, but not Beethoven.

Szell/Cleveland is also a good ninth. The best, as I've noted above is Fricsay. Also -- if you like the Egmont Overture you will also find the best recording of it on that CD. I think you will be happy with your investment.

My favorite beethoven concerto set is (surprise) Szell/Fleisher on Sony. The Arrau recording you mention is also good. I don't think I have the rest of the piano concerto CDs you've listed.

I am only familiar with Marricone from a handful of Italian movies and
Spaghetti westerns. I'll check out your website for some more suggestions.

- Jason

Jason, you seem to be well-informed on this subject (Beethoven symphonies of all music have a special drawing power for uber-collectors, wouldn't you say? ) so I'd be interested in your opinions on the following recordings. I'm still quite early in my listening/collecting and have finite funds, so I own only a few at present.

Kleiber 5 & 7 (Okay, you did commend this one)
Szell 3 & 8 (ditto)
Bruno Walter 4 & 6 (Sony)

Ninth:
Solti 1972 (Penguin/Decca; ADD) and 1987 (Decca; DDD)
Furtwangler 1951 Bayreuth (EMI)
Just bought- Karajan 1977 (Remastered along w/5&6 on 2 CDs; Deutsche Gram). I gathered that this was the Karajan Ninth to get, and specifically in this remastered edition.
Just bought- Fricsay 1958, which you commend
Also: Furtwangler 1942, as part of a "Furtwangler Conducts Beethoven" box set of his wartime recordings. The sound is pretty fuzzy and I haven't really given this much listening, despite the many claims that it's the greatest recorded performance of this work. (In both this and the '51 Bayreuth, what unfortunately stands out in my mind too much is a slow opening to the 2nd movement, which isn't much to my liking.)

I'm also accumulating recordings of LvB's 4th and 5th piano concertos grouped on one disc. So far I have digital recordings by Ashkenazy/Mehta (Decca) and Barenboim (playing and conducting; Seraphim/EMI), and '60s recordings by Kempff/Leitner (DG) and Arrou/Haitink (Phillips). And, of course, I have the Perahia/Haitink box set of all 5 concerti (digital '83; Sony).

I just discovered the music and film forums here. I briefly popped in to the film forum and was pleased to notice that you (Jason) have a familiarity with Morricone, presently my favorite composer next to Beethoven. I've got more stuff about films and music (the music stuff is really just in my journal right now) at my website: http://geocities.com/cathcacr. (Right off the top of my head, the highest-ranking Italian-language film on my favorites list is Fellini's Juliet of the Spirits, followed closely by a little-known Spaghetti Western masterpiece (directed by a Sergio Corbucci, music composed by a certain Ennio Morricone), Il Grande Silenzio. Oh, wait -- Tarkovsky's Nostalghia is Italian-language. )

Been very recently trying out a little "modern" classical music, too. Just introduced myself to some Scriabin (kind of on the edge of modern, a la Debussy), Schoenberg, Bartok, some others. I was nudged in this direction after hearing some intriguing and well-done "modern"-sounding stuff in a favorite Morricone compilation. I'm sure that most of the modern stuff is just awful to (try to) listen to, but I'm holding out hope that more than a little of it is at least fascinating or even beautiful in its own way.

I'm paying attention too, Jason. I'm just now becoming picky about the performance and recording. I have a spectacular Moonlight Sonata on a Beethoven complilation but it doesn't say who's who on the CD itself. I'll see if I can track down the box for it.

Excellent stuff Jason,

I for one will find a safe place to file this list. My collection of Beethoven only consists of that Kleiber disk you mention (brilliant!!!) and Karajan leading the Berlin Philharmonic in the 9th Symphony.

Such list are bloody handy for filtering out the dross. As far as classical music goes, the style & skill of the composer and how he and the orchestra feel on the night is key to whether a symphony sounds flat and boring or alive and electric.

Encore! Encore!!!