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Linz's Mario Book—Updated!PollCan Trump Redeem Himself Following His Disgusting Capitulation to the Swamp on the Budget?
No (please elaborate)
0%
Yes (please elaborate)
56%
Maybe (please elaborate)
44%
Who cares? (My blood doesn't boil and I'm a waste of space)
0%
Total votes: 9
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What's the significance of the recent protests in the Arab world?![]() Submitted by administrator on Wed, 2011-02-02 09:09
Much ado about nothing.
0% (0 votes)
A cry for freedom. The fall of the Arabic "Berlin Wall".
24% (5 votes)
Man the barricades! The rise of militant Islam.
33% (7 votes)
Power politics with an uncertain outcome.
33% (7 votes)
Other (please specify).
10% (2 votes)
Total votes: 21
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"Democracy" in Egypt
http://www.aina.org/news/20110...
(AINA) -- A mob of nearly four thousand Muslims has attacked Coptic homes this evening in the village of Soul, Atfif in Helwan Governorate, 30 kilometers from Cairo, and torched the Church of St. Mina and St. George. There are conflicting reports about the whereabouts of the Church pastor Father Yosha and three deacons who were at church; some say they died in the fire and some say they are being held captive by the Muslims inside the church.
Witnesses report the mob prevented the fire brigade from entering the village. The army, which has been stationed for the last two days in the village of Bromil, 7 kilometers from Soul, initially refused to go into Soul, according to the officer in charge. When the army finally sent three tanks to the village, Muslim elders sent them away, saying that everything was "in order now."
A curfew has been imposed on the 12,000 Christians in the village
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Let us all hail the "new democracy" in Egypt. The first order of business: religious and ethnic cleansing.
Democracy May Be The Greatest Gift to Islamists
Farce of democracy?
What do you mean?
Are you agreeing with Frediano about revolutions being undemocratic?
That wasn't my point.
Thanks Marcus
..It's one hell of a place.
And re Gaddafi. I agree to this extent - "the farce of democracy."
Gaddafi & Obama
No signs yet of NK unrest
No signs yet of NK unrest: Seoul
"Seoul said Thursday it has observed no signs of a popular uprising in North Korea amid reports of unrest in the isolated state.
The assessment by the Ministry of Unification came after a local daily reported that hundreds of protesters had clashed with authorities in the town of Sinuiju, increasing speculation over whether the uprisings rocking the Arab world could reach the North.
“We do not see a high possibility or signals of any kind of change or moves in North Korea at this time,” a Unification Ministry representative said, adding the ministry could not confirm the reported protest.
The Chosun Ilbo quoted North Korean sources as saying that military forces quickly quelled the demonstration, wounding some protesters. Five were rumored to have been killed, the report said.
The incident apparently started when police officers cracking down on market activity beat a trader unconscious. The victim’s family members and supporters then began to protest.
The report said security agents and military forces moved in when the activity appeared to be gaining momentum and remained on high alert after the incident.
The source said that discontent had been growing in the area over the regime’s renewed interference in the markets and reported failure to give out extra rations on leader Kim Jong-il’s birthday, which fell last week.
The impoverished North reportedly began allowing some market activity after previous crackdowns failed.
The conservative daily reported earlier that smaller protests demanding food and electricity had broken out in North Pyeongan Province on Feb. 14, two days before Kim’s birthday.
Some analysts have said major unrest in the North is unlikely, citing the Kim Jong-il regime’s iron-fisted rule of the country that blocks citizen access to most outside sources of information."
I happen to know a fair bit on the topic...
...of North Korea and have read several books and follow any news stories going.
I must have missed that one.
However, North Koreans cannot legally find out what's going on in the outside world, apart from the official propaganda.
And I doubt that they would report anything from the Jasmine revolution, and if they did, it would be in the form of: "capitalists starving in the streets".
Many North Koreans are shocked to find out, when exposed to the truth, that all the "official" reports on TV and radio about South Koreans starving and sleeping under bridges are fabricated.
I believe that the USSR employed similar tactics during the cold war to keep their people in line.
Actually
Why do you ask that question of North Korea Marcus?
Yes
Should we look into the others?
Oh I see...
...greg, thanks.
Not North Korea proper, so to say.
It's all related
I googled this:
SEOUL, Feb. 24 (UPI) -- The North Korean regime is on alert after dozens of people staged nighttime protests in Pyongan province demanding electricity and food, a Seoul newspaper said.
The Feb. 14 protests were followed by another Feb. 18 in the city of Sinuiju when hundreds clashed with police to protest a crackdown on open-air markets, The Chosun Ilbo reported.
Sinuiju is considered North Korea's main gateway to the outside world.
"People can watch Chinese TV in Sinuiju and defectors can communicate with their family there," a source in North Korea told the newspaper. "Most people in Sinuiju probably know about the protests in the Middle East."
Some experts say they believe North Korean authorities began cracking down on open-air markets to prevent news about the Jasmine Revolutions from spreading across North Korea through market gossip.
Authorities are reportedly conducting body searches of people going from Sinuiju to the Chinese border town of Dandong and back, checking for USB memory devices or DVDs with information about the Jasmine Revolutions, protests in North Korea or information about living conditions in the North.
"There's still a lot of public unrest," the source in Sinuiju said.
South Korean Unification Minister Hyun In-taek said the North Korean regime "is probably trying to keep the Middle Eastern protests from affecting it."
"Internet access is strictly controlled in North Korea, and there is no North Korean media coverage, so I believe ordinary citizens are unaware" of the Jasmine Revolutions, he said.
Unrest in North Korea?
Can you give a link for that?
How could any unrest in NK be related to Tunisia anyway?
Most people in NK have no knowledge of what goes on in the outside world apart from what the Govt tells them.
The Daily Reckoning Week in Review – Melbourne, Australia
Saturday, 26th February 2011
Nick Hubble
For Daily Reckoning Australia
I mean, like a Revolution every 2 years...
Those countries haven't had revolutions every two years.
Not just like.
Marcus:
Oh, you mean like the American Revolution?
Almost.
I mean, like a Revolution every 2 years, instead of elections. Revolution as the new 'norm' for 'democracy.'
Democracy by decibel.
The American Revolution was a brutish kicking out of the british. It was megapolitics, not politics. The politics of force.
It may just be me, but I think that replacing politics with megapolitcs as the new political norm would be a step backwards for civilization; endless revolution. Chaos.
No matter how bored we've become with politics, the reality of megapolitcs as a constant diet-- as the new political norm-- would soon grow thin on us all.
TUNIS, Tunisia -- Tunisia's
TUNIS, Tunisia -- Tunisia's transitional government approved a general amnesty of the country's political prisoners Friday, the prime minister said, in a move likely to free those convicted under tough anti-terrorism laws.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
"It seems like a step backwards for civilization."
Oh, you mean like the American Revolution?
Kind of my point.
If the silent majority were against this, then they had to fight against it in the streets.
If they weren't willing to do that, then they just forfeited their chance of changing the outcome.
Is that the new model of democracy, then? It's no longer necessary in the least to actually have elections, because we have this new, apparently reliable model based on ... noise volume?
It seems like a step backwards for civilization.
@ Stratfor.com (analysis by George Friedman)
What happened was not a revolution. The demonstrators never brought down Mubarak, let alone the regime. What happened was a military coup that used the cover of protests to force Mubarak out of office in order to preserve the regime. When it became clear Feb. 10 that Mubarak would not voluntarily step down, the military staged what amounted to a coup to force his resignation. Once he was forced out of office, the military took over the existing regime by creating a military council and taking control of critical ministries. The regime was always centered on the military. What happened on Feb. 11 was that the military took direct control.
Read more: http://www.stratfor.com/weekly...
Frediano...
...there was a counter-demonstration that was pro-Mubarek.
I don't know what happened to them, either they fizzled out or the media started ignoring them.
However, whatever happened they can't have been enough to disrupt the other protest.
If the silent majority were against this, then they had to fight against it in the streets.
If they weren't willing to do that, then they just forfeited their chance of changing the outcome.
Democracy by noise
In balance, this appears to be another move towards democracy, away from where Egypt was. But, the following gives me pause.
60,000 people demonstrated in that square, out of a nation of 80 million people, and our POTUS called for Mubarek to leave. I think he used that odd word, 'must.'
We and an entire industry full of talking heads are absolutely certain that those 60,000 are representative of the 'voice of the people,' and are sufficiently convinced of that, such that we don't regard it as necessary to actually poll the people of Egypt via an election, or referendum, or in other words ... actual democracy.
OK. So, when 100,000 people fill the Mall in Washington, protesting the Obama Administration, did anyone conclude that 'Obama must leave?' Or instead, did we have ... an already scheduled election?
Why have elections, if it is possible to assess 60,000 protesters out of a nation of 80 million and assure ourselves that they represent the 'voice of the People?'
Do we actually need elections, if this is how political change 'should' be done?
After all, it was peaceful.
Mubarek was not Saddam. Egypt is not Iraq.
But, 60,000 noisy people do not automatically speak for 80,000,000 people, even with the expert opinions of media talking heads and folks such as our very own DNI, Mr. James Clapper.
Mubarek stepped in it when he floated the idea of inserting his son onto his 'throne.' But he didn't cling to power until his fingers bled. The people of Egypt were right to demand a move towards real democracy and I hope they get that chance. If that is what happens, then in the end, concerns over this being a new model of 'democracy' -- one based purely on noise and agitation, granting carte blanche to any noisy minority willing to make some noise -- will be unfounded.
But you can already see the fringe in other countries encouraged to believe that a new, magic shortcut from the fringe has been discovered.
Aljazeera reports
Mubarak's personal wealth is estimated at $70bn.
The United Nations World Food Programe has fed over 50 million Egyptians, roughly 70 percent of the population.
Tony Blair says "Mubarak is immensely courageous and a force for good"
ref:
http://english.aljazeera.net/v...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl...
http://allafrica.com/stories/2...
The "cry for freedom" argument...
...number 7 on last week's viral charts.
Regan on (Egypt)
He is referencing the Soviet Union, but in all sense of his words of morality and wisdom, Regan could be speaking of Egypt.
Especially in light of the 1.5 billion dollars of money extorted from Americans and dished out annually to Egypt by the American government.
If there's to be any
If there's to be any surprise, Greg, it will be that the majority turn out to be intellectually primed for freedom over Islam. I'm not sure where to vote on this poll. I think it's somewhere between the rise of Islamists and power politics with an uncertain outcome.
Reserve Bank
America and its policies of printing money and exporting inflation has been the main driver of the price rises in commodities. The Egyptians are the first of many food wars. No surprise here.
A Good Speech
@ gregster
what could be the cause of the first and only near-perfectly sensible post of Dazzler?
I've been making sense all along; it's just that you've finally taken your head out of your arse and come up for air; so, temporarily, the world probably seems a little more in focus. Enjoy it while you can.
Thanks Richard
I've saved it for a full read. Bloodthirsty stuff.
A post I came across at
A post I came across at Jihadwatch that links straight to the horses mouth.
It has probably been referenced before on JW, but for those who have not seen it, a veritable manual for the theoretical underpinnings of the Muslim Brotherhood is available at:
http://www.kalamullah.com/Book...
Not only does this single file include the full version of Qutb's 'Milestones', but also two important long pieces by Hasan al-Banna, including 'Kitab ul Jihad', and a small book by a favorite of the dangerous and influential Yemeni, al-Awlaki, namely one Ibn Nuhaas. And more.
Never let it be said we were not told.
I wonder
what could be the cause of the first and only near-perfectly sensible post of Dazzler? A common cause of an Israel with intelligent design proponents such as he? Puzzling.
Some in the media claim that
Some in the media claim that the "Muslim Brotherhood" is benign because it is four-square behind democracy.
Sounds like something the PR wing of the Muslim Brotherhood would like the west to believe. They are quite simply a terrorist organization that has been around since the 1920s; one of their spin-offs is Hamas.
My own take on things is the following:
If a very secularized country like Iraq could not be made into a western-style democracy even by dint of U.S. military might, then I don't see how Arab Muslims in less secular nations, such as Egypt, would suddenly get the itch to be free -- in our sense of that word. This entire uprising appears just a little too coincidental and "stage managed" for me to believe that it represents mass yearning for democracy.
In the Age of Obama, it's always a safe bet to adopt a contrarian strategy: if Obama is against it, I'm for it; if he's for it, I'm against it.
A year ago, when there was indeed a mass uprising in Iran demanding the ouster of Achmadinejad, did Obama openly lend his support to the demonstrators and make public statements urging Iran's leader to step down? No. He said nothing, despite the fact that Iran is not an ally of ours and is hostile to our values.
Today, when it appears that there is a mass uprising in Egypt demanding the ouster of Mubarak, Obama does the opposite of what he did in Iran: he now supports the demonstrators openly and has publicly urged Mubarak to step down, despite the fact that Egypt is an ally and one of the two Arab nations that has a peace treaty with Israel; and he does this knowing full well that this will create a power vacuum that would be filled by radical jihadist elements of the Muslim Brotherhood. He also knows that this would create a perfect excuse to apply more pressure on Israel not only to cease building settlements, or cease building apartment buildings in its own capital, but to adopt suicidal policies such as the "right of return" for Palestinian Arabs.
There's been plenty of
There's been plenty of pursuance of the militant option, Marcus. The most recent in Egypt has been the bombing of Coptic churches and the ongoing terror threats against the Copts, which are actually worldwide, not just confined to Egypt. The terror tactics are just a softening up. The strength of the Muslim Brotherhood's position is an unknown to me. I don't think they are weak, but whether or not they're in a strong enough position to take power in Egypt I do not know. It seems there's a lot of Mubarak supporters coming out now fighting back against those who want him gone. Who's going to come out on top I really don't have a clue, but I guess we're going to find out soon enough.
So why...
...hasn't anyone chosen the "militant Islam" option?
Do you think the Muslim Brotherhood is weak, or just that they won't be successful in these countries?
Brotherly Love
Marcus
The Muslim Brotherhood was started by Hussan Al Bana in 1926, or there abouts, in response to the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, which mean't the end of the Caliphate. Their aim was to bring back the Caliphate, and achieve global Islamic rule. Al Qaeda and other modern day Jihadists groups arose from the Brotherhood. The Brotherhood publicly renounces the use of violence to achieve their goals, but behind closed doors they support the likes of Al Qaeda. They are stealth jihadists, and they are behind Muslims organisation in the US, and West, such as CAIR, the Muslim Student Association, and a host of other groups. Democracy is of use to them only so long as they can gain and advantage from it. What they're doing is playing the game, and those commentators who hold democracy on high are idiots.
"The Muslim Brotherhood...
"... interprets Islam conservatively. Its founder called for "a campaign against ostentation in dress and loose behavior," "segregation of male and female students," a separate curriculum for girls, and "the prohibition of dancing and other such pastimes..."
There have been...
...protests in Algeria, Egypt, Yemen, and Jordan since the so-called "Jasmine Revolution" in Tunisia.
Jordan's King has replaced his PM.
Yemen's president will step down.
Some in the media claim that the "Muslim Brotherhood" is benign because it is four-square behind democracy.
I don't know anything about them.
However I chose the power politics option. Nobody knows yet where this will lead.
I bet historians will conclude that this "revolution" in Egypt was born of the world-wide recession, as all civil unrest is.
Too early to tell ...
... but the Muslim Brotherhood's attempt to hijack the movement is alarming.
My hunch is that it's a boiling over of frustration on the part of people pissed off with grinding poverty, impotence, and Mubarak's arrogant, corrupt police force. I doubt that this "boiling over" is philosophically coherent, informed, or even necessarily benign. I note that a common theme among the protesters is Mubarak's perceived sycophancy toward Israel. That doesn't bode well.